In this episode of the Versioning Show, Tim and David are joined by Miriam Suzanne, best known for Susy, a responsive layout toolkit for Sass. They discuss going from being a lurker to finding your voice, the importance of writing about what you’re learning, stumbling into fame, approaching new projects, and unit testing in Sass.
在Versioning Show的这一集中，Tim和David与Miriam Suzanne一起参加了会议，后者以Susy(Sass的响应式布局工具包)而闻名。 他们讨论从成为潜伏者到找到您的声音，写关于您正在学习的内容的重要性，踏入成名，进入新项目以及在Sass中进行单元测试的重要性。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
Hey. What’s up everybody? This is Tim Evko …
嘿。 大家好吗？ 这是Tim Evko…
David:
大卫：
-
… and this is M. David Green …
…这是大卫·格林(M. David Green)…
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
… and you are listening to episode number 8 of the Versioning Podcast.
…，您正在收听Versioning Podcast的第8集。
David:
大卫：
-
This is a place where we get together to discuss the industry of the web, from development to design, plus some of the people making it happen today and planning where it’s headed in the next version.
在这里，我们可以聚集一堂，讨论从开发到设计的Web行业，以及今天使之成为现实的人们，并计划下一版的发展方向。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
Today, we’re going to be talking with Miriam Suzanne, all about her background, what she’s been working on lately, and we’ll talk about Sass today, which is exciting — a tool that I use all the time.
今天，我们将与Miriam Suzanne谈谈她的背景，她最近的工作，今天我们将谈论Sass，这令人兴奋-我一直使用的工具。
So, let’s go ahead and this version started.
因此，让我们继续，此版本开始。
David:
大卫：
-
So, Miriam, how are you doing today?
那么，米里亚姆，你今天好吗？
Miriam:
Miriam：
-
I’m good. How are you?
我很好。 你好吗？
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
Fantastic. It’s wonderful to meet you.
太棒了 见到你很高兴。
Miriam:
Miriam：
-
Yeah. You too. I’m happy to be here.
是的 你也是。 我很高兴来到这里。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
I saw you give your presentation at the Clarity Conference in San Francisco a few months back, and I really wanted to meet you and talk to you some more about your philosophy behind design systems and the development with design.
几个月前，我看到您在旧金山举行的Clarity会议上作了演讲，我真的很想见到您，并与您进一步探讨您在设计系统和设计开发方面的理念。
Miriam:
Miriam：
-
Let’s do it.
我们开始做吧。
David:
大卫：
-
Cool. To get things started, since this is the Versioning Show, we have a philosophical question we like to ask for all of our guests. Our philosophical question is this: in your current career, what version are you, and why?
凉。 首先，由于这是Versioning Show，因此我们有一个哲学问题要向所有客人提出。 我们的哲学问题是：您目前的职业是什么版本？为什么？
Miriam:
Miriam：
-
I’m going to say somewhere in the 3 as the major release or the major version. Then it’s probably like a 3.9 or something. I don’t know. 3.9.2. Probably a few bug fixes in there.
我要说的是3的主要版本或主要版本。 然后可能是3.9之类的东西。 我不知道。 3.9.2。 可能有一些错误修复。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
Cool. Is that something that you’ve come to after trying a bunch of different things?
凉。 经过一堆不同的尝试之后，您会遇到这种情况吗？
Miriam:
Miriam：
-
I don’t know. I just feel like my career has happened in various stages. The first one I was a lurker, and then suddenly I wasn’t. That happened quickly and without me paying attention. Then there’s just been a few shifts since then as I — I don’t know — get comfortable and figure out where I belong and get on with this career thing.
我不知道。 我只是觉得我的职业生涯经历了各个阶段。 第一个我是潜伏者，然后突然间我不是。 那件事很快就发生了，没有我注意。 从那时起，我发生了一些变化，因为我-我不知道-感到舒适并弄清楚自己的身份，并继续从事这项职业。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
How do you characterize the difference between being a lurker to where you are right now?
您如何形容潜伏者与现在的位置之间的区别？
Miriam:
Miriam：
-
I think in some ways it’s the self-confidence thing. I was a lurker because I didn’t think my voice mattered or I had anything say. Then at some point Sass got big around me. I happened to be playing with it when it got big. I became an expert at something accidentally. I had to catch up with that mentally. People wanted my opinion before I was quite ready to give it, and I’ve been trying to come along and figure out how to give my opinion and get comfortable with that role.
我认为从某些方面来说这是自信。 我之所以潜伏，是因为我认为自己的声音不重要，或者我有话要说。 然后在某个时刻，Sass在我周围变得很大。 当它变大时，我碰巧正在玩它。 我偶然地成为专家。 我必须在精神上赶上它。 在我准备发表意见之前，人们一直希望我发表意见，而且我一直在努力找出如何发表自己的意见，并对这个角色感到满意。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
Miriam, I was looking at your blog earlier today, and you do a lot of very interesting writing and blogging related to development and outside of that. How did you get started with all of that?
Miriam，我今天早些时候在看您的博客，您进行了很多非常有趣的与开发有关的写作和博客。 您是如何开始所有这些的？
Miriam:
Miriam：
-
The development specifically, or the art side of things?
具体是发展还是事物的艺术方面？
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
Yeah, very interesting. Let’s start with development, and then let’s move on to art, because that sounds pretty interesting too.
是的，非常有趣。 让我们从开发开始，然后进入艺术，因为这听起来也很有趣。
Miriam:
Miriam：
-
You mean the blogging about code and writing the book I released recently with SitePoint? Yeah. That was again part of that accidental shift as soon as I realized that people were using tools I had built, and they were interested in what I had to say. I thought actually a thing that I loved to do is to play around with new toys and then show people what I learned and get input from everybody else.
您的意思是撰写有关代码的博客并撰写我最近与SitePoint发行的书吗？ 是的 一旦我意识到人们正在使用我所构建的工具，并且他们对我必须说的话感兴趣，那又是意外转变的一部分。 我以为实际上我喜欢做的一件事情就是玩新玩具，然后向人们展示我学到的东西，并从其他人那里得到投入。
I was thrown into the open-source world. Susy was just a little thing I wrote for myself on the side, because it was useful in my client work. I had no GitHub account. I didn’t know much about open source, and my brother put it on GitHub and said, Here you go. You’re now an open-source contributor. You’re not a maintainer. Good luck.
我被投入开源世界。 Susy只是我为自己写的一小件事，因为它在我的客户工作中很有用。 我没有GitHub帐户。 我对开源不是很了解，我的兄弟把它放到了GitHub上说：“ 走了。”
您现在是开源贡献者。
您不是维护者。
祝好运。
So, that was the start of my GitHub account, and I really liked the way it worked. At that point, only a few people were paying attention, and Chris Eppstein I guess didn’t have anything better to do. I got some quick, good feedback from people in a low risk setting and I really enjoyed that.
因此，这就是我的GitHub帐户的开始，我真的很喜欢它的工作方式。 那时，只有少数人在关注，而克里斯·埃普斯坦 ( Chris Eppstein)我想没有什么可做的了。 在低风险环境中，我得到了一些快速，良好的反馈，我真的很喜欢。
I liked the back and forth and getting to put out my idea and then get a lot of critique from the community and make changes and adjust. I thought that was a lot of fun.
我喜欢来回走动，并提出自己的想法，然后从社区中获得很多批评，并进行更改和调整。 我认为这很有趣。
David [4:05]:
大卫[4:05] ：
-
Susy was a really great idea. I don’t know if all of our listeners are familiar with it, but I am, because I actually used it on a project about two, maybe three, years ago. What I loved about it, it’s a grid system that doesn’t require taking over the entire page as a total layout. That’s an interesting approach. I’m curious how you came up with that.
Susy是一个非常好的主意。 我不知道我们所有的听众是否都熟悉它，但是我知道，因为我实际上是在大约两年前(也许是三年前)在一个项目中使用它的。 我喜欢它，它是一个网格系统，不需要接管整个页面的总布局。 这是一个有趣的方法。 我很好奇你是怎么想到的。
Miriam:
Miriam：
-
Nothing in it was unique to me. I was working with an approach that I had seen on a talk by Natalie Downe. She had given a talk I think in 2008 about building systems rather than using existing frameworks. Building systems, languages, tools that you could reuse across different projects and they’d be very unopinionated.
没有什么是我独有的。 我正在使用Natalie Downe在一次演讲中看到的方法。 我认为她在2008年发表了有关构建系统而不是使用现有框架的演讲。 构建可以在不同项目中重复使用的系统，语言，工具，而且它们的使用方式非常简单。
I was using her system for layouts. It was very flexible. Using fluid grids on the inside, and then putting them inside of elastic containers. I really liked that approach, but it was a lot of math. Not hard math, but a lot of math, and I didn’t like doing it. So I started complaining about that, and asking if there was a better way to do it. Somebody pointed me to Chris Eppstein’s video about Sass. I just put Natalie Down’s thing in the Sass and said, Great. That will work well for me.
At that point it was really simple. It was two equations.
我正在使用她的系统进行布局。 这非常灵活。 在内部使用流体网格，然后将其放入弹性容器中。 我真的很喜欢这种方法，但是数学很多。 不是硬数学，而是很多数学，我不喜欢这样做。 因此，我开始对此抱怨，并问是否有更好的方法可以做到这一点。 有人将我指向Chris Eppstein的有关Sass的视频。 我只是把娜塔莉·唐(Natalie Down)的东西放到萨斯(Sass)中说， 太好了。
那对我来说很好。
那时真的很简单。 这是两个方程式。
David:
大卫：
-
It worked well for a lot of us I think.
我认为它对我们很多人来说效果很好。
Miriam:
Miriam：
-
Great.
大。
David:
大卫：
-
Was that your initial introduction to Sass, or had you already been doing a lot of Sass before then?
这是您最初对Sass的介绍，还是在那之前您已经做过很多Sass？
Miriam:
Miriam：
-
I hadn’t done anything before then. I wrote Susy the first night I played with Sass. That was the only reason I wanted to use Sass. That sounds shocking at this point, because Susy got large and complex. At that point, it wasn’t large and complex. It was two mixins and a couple of variables. There were already grid systems. I looked at how other grid systems were doing, and then I said, OK, I’ll take these things and I’ll do Natalie Down’s approach instead.
在那之前我什么都没做。 我和Sass玩的第一晚写了Susy。 那是我想要使用Sass的唯一原因。 在这一点上，这听起来令人震惊，因为Susy变得又大又复杂。 那时，它并不庞大也不复杂。 这是两个mixins和几个变量。 已经有网格系统。 我查看了其他网格系统的运行情况，然后说， 好的，我会做这些事情，而我将采用Natalie Down的方法。
David:
大卫：
-
Very cool. You’ve really taken Sass a lot further than a lot of people. I’m curious, what was it about Sass that really drew you in?
很酷。 您真的使Sass超越了很多人。 我很好奇，Sass真正吸引了您的是什么？
Miriam:
Miriam：
-
Yeah, that’s a good question. I think I enjoy being a programmer, and I don’t understand being a programmer in the complete abstract. I don’t like playing with data, quite, but I like designing things. So it made sense to me to fall somewhere in the middle, and I get to play with logical structures and programming but in a way that I can see the final results. I can see a grid layout. I can see something come to life in front of me. It was a nice mix of things that made sense to me. So I enjoy playing with it.
是的，这是一个好问题。 我想我喜欢成为一名程序员，但我不理解成为完整摘要中的一名程序员。 我确实不喜欢玩数据，但是我喜欢设计东西。 因此，对我来说，跌入中间位置是很有意义的，我可以使用逻辑结构和编程，但是可以看到最终结果。 我可以看到网格布局。 我可以看到一些东西在我面前变得生动起来。 这对我来说很有意义。 所以我喜欢玩它。
I have to say, the way I got into CSS was somebody pointing me at Eric Meyer’s css/edge page back in the day. I don’t know if you remember that, where he was playing with just weird experiments with CSS. That’s always been what I loved. I said, Oh, you can experiment with this. Let’s do it.
我不得不说，我进入CSS的方式是当日有人将我指向Eric Meyer的CSS / Edge页面。 我不知道您是否还记得他在玩CSS的奇怪实验的地方。 那一直是我所爱的。 我说， 哦，您可以尝试一下。
我们开始做吧。
David:
大卫：
-
Going back a little bit, I’m interested how you got into programming to begin with, and what turned you on to that?
回想一下，我很感兴趣您是如何开始进行编程的，是什么使您开始的呢？
Miriam:
Miriam：
-
Yeah. I had a theater company that needed a website, and I asked my brother to build me a website, and he said no. So, that was it. I had to learn. I built that website, and then one for myself, and then I think a few of my friends asked for websites. And then suddenly I had a client, and then a job, and it just built from there. And it turns out it pays better than theater!
是的 我有一家剧院公司需要一个网站，我请哥哥为我建立一个网站，但他拒绝了。 就是这样。 我必须学习。 我建立了那个网站，然后为自己建立了一个网站，然后我想我的一些朋友要求建立网站。 然后突然间我有了一个客户，然后是一份工作，它就是从那里建立的。 事实证明，这比戏剧还不错！
David:
大卫：
-
[Laughs] I love that. We’re finding out a lot of the folks that we’re talking to here are essentially self taught when it comes to programming. Although I know you also have a musical background, and sometimes those two go together.
(笑)我喜欢。 我们发现在这里与我们交谈的很多人基本上都是自学编程的人。 尽管我知道您也有音乐背景，但有时这两个人在一起。
Miriam:
Miriam：
-
Yeah, that does seem really popular. I feel like — at design conferences especially — you get more people raising their hands with a music theory background, or some sort of music background, rather than programming or computer science.
是的，这确实很受欢迎。 我觉得，尤其是在设计会议上，您会吸引更多的人以音乐理论背景或某种音乐背景来学习，而不是编程或计算机科学。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
And you haven’t let go of that. You’ve managed to keep that active while you’ve been working as a programmer, I believe.
而且您还没有放过。 我相信，您在担任程序员的过程中一直设法保持活跃。
Miriam:
Miriam：
-
Yeah. Part of that’s because I always thought the programmer thing was a side gig, and that’s part of the reason I was a lurker for so long. I didn’t think of myself as a programmer. I wasn’t hanging out in programmer communities. I’m an artist. When I moved to Denver, I met artists. All of my friends are musicians and theater people. Then suddenly I had a following in the ether, and I had to start rethinking who I was. But art hasn’t left. That’s still part of the primary gig. I think of it as all part of the same thing to me. I’m playing with the same ideas. I’m interacting with an audience. I’m building experiences. I don’t know. I enjoy all of it, and feel like it all ties together.
是的 部分原因是因为我一直以为程序员是副业，这也是我长期潜伏的原因之一。 我不认为自己是程序员。 我不是在程序员社区中闲逛。 我是画家 当我搬到丹佛时，我遇到了艺术家。 我所有的朋友都是音乐家和戏剧界人士。 突然之间，我在以太坊中有了追随者，我不得不重新考虑自己是谁。 但是艺术还没有消失。 那仍然是主要演出的一部分。 我认为这对我来说都是同一件事。 我在玩同样的主意。 我正在与观众互动。 我正在积累经验。 我不知道。 我喜欢所有这些，并觉得它们紧密联系在一起。
Tim [8:34]:
蒂姆[8:34] ：
-
I was actually just going to ask you, do the two — art versus programming — do you ever find them influencing each other and helping you come up with ideas for one or the other?
我实际上只是想问您，这两者-艺术还是程序设计-您是否发现它们相互影响并帮助您提出彼此的想法？
Miriam:
Miriam：
-
Yeah. I feel like learning to be a professional creative really helped my private creative. I learned how to use processes. In some ways, that’s a thing that you have to learn in theater anyway, because you’re dealing with groups, which is different from — a lot of painters don’t have to learn process necessarily in the same way, but in theater you’ve got to bring in together 15 people to create one piece of art.
是的 我觉得学会成为一名专业创意人士确实对我的私人创意有所帮助。 我学习了如何使用流程。 在某些方面，无论如何，这都是您必须在剧院中学习的东西，因为您要与小组打交道，这与—很多画家不一定必须以相同的方式学习过程，但是在剧院中，您必须召集15个人一起创作一件艺术品。
So that — being a director in a theater, and then moving that into being a project manager and a designer in tech — that was a smooth transition. The feeling like, OK, these are very similar things. Working with teams. Trying to inspire them. Trying to edit. Trying to get a better tool before you launch.
Then it went back the other way, saying Yeah, I’ve learned how to have ideas on a deadline and how to make inspiration happen because I need it tomorrow.
因此-成为剧院的导演，然后将其转变为技术的项目经理和设计师-这是一个平稳的过渡。 感觉不错，这些都是非常相似的东西。
与团队合作。
试图激励他们。
尝试编辑。
尝试在启动之前获得更好的工具。
然后它又反过来了，说是的，我已经学会了如何在截止日期之前提出想法，以及如何使灵感发生，因为我明天需要它。
David:
大卫：
-
I imagine that that also translates into the work you’ve done with the open-source community, because again, coordinating teams of remote people you’ve never met all working together on a project, that’s a challenge for a lot of folks.
我想这也将转化为您在开源社区中所做的工作，因为再次，要协调您从未遇到过的远程人员团队一起完成一个项目，这对许多人来说都是一个挑战。
Miriam:
Miriam：
-
Yeah. It’s a thing, though, that I’ve never had to deal with in some ways. I get occasional submissions to Susy. I’ve had a few other people be regular contributors now and then, but never at a scale where I was really managing a team in that way.
是的 不过，我从来没有以某种方式处理过这件事。 我偶尔收到Susy的投稿。 我不时有其他一些人成为常规的贡献者，但是从来没有像我这样真正地管理过一个团队。
So I don’t know if that’s a mistake I’ve made in how I run the communities around Susy or my other tools. I’m curious about that, and I’m thinking of trying to make a few changes and see if more people come on board and what teams we can build.
因此，我不知道这是我在Susy周围的社区或其他工具的运营方式中犯了一个错误。 我对此感到很好奇，我正在考虑尝试进行一些更改，以查看是否有更多人加入我们以及我们可以组建什么团队。
David:
大卫：
-
That’s interesting, because everybody has a different approach to what works for them, and I’m not sure that there is a right and a wrong about that kind of a thing.
这很有趣，因为每个人对于他们的工作都有不同的方法，而且我不确定这种事情是对还是错。
Miriam:
Miriam：
-
Yeah.
是的
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
I’m sure there are people listening who feel that they’re in a place where they need inspiration, because they have a deadline tomorrow. Do you have any advice or tips that you could give out to people who find themselves in that situation?
我敢肯定，有人在听，他们觉得自己在需要启发的地方，因为他们明天有个截止日期。 您有什么建议或技巧可以给遇到这种情况的人吗？
Miriam:
Miriam：
-
Yeah. My method is gather as much information as you can and start writing it all down. My sense is, instead of going for a shitty first draft, you just go for a shitty pile of shit. It doesn’t matter. You just fill your head with things. Click links on Wikipedia — anything that’s related to where you’re trying to go. The more information you have to connect to each other, the more likely you’ll make an interesting connection.
是的 我的方法是收集尽可能多的信息，然后开始全部写下来。 我的感觉是，与其去做一份糟糕的初稿，不如去做一堆糟糕的事情。 没关系 您只需要把事情填满。 单击Wikipedia上的链接-与您要去的地方有关的任何内容。 彼此连接的信息越多，建立有趣的连接的可能性就越大。
I especially like following one link too far. So I’ll say, Well, OK. I followed one link that got me here, but this is still related.
Plus follow one more link. It takes me somewhere completely unexpected, and see how we can tie that back to the first. That one link too far ends up being the slip in logic that you need to have a creative inspiration.
我特别喜欢跟踪一个链接太远。 所以我会说， 好吧。
我跟踪了一个链接，使我到达了这里，但这仍然是相关的。
再加上一个链接。 它把我带到了一个完全出乎意料的地方，并且看到了我们如何将其与第一条联系起来。 那个环节太远了，最终是您需要创造性灵感的逻辑失误。
David:
大卫：
-
I don’t know. The last time that I did that I found myself up at 2:30 in the morning watching episodes of Steven Universe.
我不知道。 我最后一次这样做是在早上2:30收看Steven Universe的剧集时发现自己。
Miriam:
Miriam：
-
See? So it was successful. Good.
看到？ 这样就成功了。 好。
[Laughter]
[笑声]
David:
大卫：
-
Absolutely. I love that you’re integrating the creativity into your work process. What about the technical side of your work as well? As a self-taught person, are you attracted to certain technologies other than the Sass in particular?
绝对。 我喜欢您将创造力整合到您的工作流程中。 您的技术方面呢？ 作为一个自学成才的人，您是否特别对Sass感兴趣？
Miriam:
Miriam：
-
Well, probably. I think I come at it from very much a sense of I figure out what I want to create, and then I just figure out what technology I need in order to make that happen. So the final product comes first, or the idea for it comes before any interest in following a technology.
我们可能会。 我认为我从某种意义上讲，就是我想出自己想要创造的东西，然后才想出要实现这一点我需要什么技术。 因此，最终产品是第一位的，或者对于它的构想是对技术的兴趣不大的。
There’s lots of things that I’m interested in, like I wish I knew more about animation. I need to follow everything Rachel Nabors is doing, because it’s brilliant. There’s lots of things like that that I would love to learn, but I just need a project that pulls them in and makes me do it.
我对很多事情感兴趣，就像我希望我对动画有更多了解。 我需要关注Rachel Nabors所做的所有事情，因为它很棒。 我很想学习很多类似的东西，但是我只需要一个吸引他们并让我去做的项目。
David [12:12]:
大卫[12:12] ：
-
What attracted you to like going out and presenting? Because you’ve been giving talks and giving presentations. It’s not something that everybody does.
是什么吸引了您喜欢外出展示？ 因为您一直在进行演讲和演讲。 不是所有人都这样做。
Miriam:
Miriam：
-
Yeah. That was part of that initial discovery that this may be a thing that I enjoy: not just making the things privately in my living room — or in my bedroom as I started out — but actually going out and talking to people and finding out how other people are using it and how I can make it better. That interactive part of it is exciting to me.
是的 那是最初发现的一部分，这可能是我喜欢的东西：不仅仅是在我的客厅或我刚开始的卧室里私下制作这些东西，而是实际上出去与人交谈并了解其他人们正在使用它，以及如何使它变得更好。 互动部分令我兴奋。
And people kept asking what I was thinking, so I started telling them. So I really enjoy that. I mean, I saw at one point — I think back still when I was mostly lurking — I saw these people that were standards evangelists
. They were always inspirations to me, and I thought, I would like that. That would be fun. I could be a standards evangelist. I don’t know.
Now I’m I guess a Sass evangelist by mistake.
人们一直问我在想什么，所以我开始告诉他们。 所以我真的很喜欢。 我的意思是，我有一次看到了-我回想起大多数时候潜伏的时候-我看到了这些是标准传教士的人
。 他们一直是我的灵感来源，我想， 我想要那样。
这应该很有趣。
我可以成为一名标准传教士。
我不知道。
现在我想是一个错误的Sass传播者。
David:
大卫：
-
And a separation of concerns evangelist
as well, I believe.
我认为，关注点分离也可以得到传播
。
Miriam:
Miriam：
-
Yeah. That’s true.
是的 确实如此。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
I think I’m a yelling at my bosses adopt performance evangelist
.
我想我对老板采用绩效传道人大喊大叫
。
Miriam:
Miriam：
-
Great.
大。
David:
大卫：
-
I am good at that.
我很擅长
[Laughter]
[笑声]
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
It’s interesting, because you’ve been working on so many things. I’m curious what you’re working on now that we might not have heard of yet.
这很有趣，因为您已经做了很多事情。 我很想知道您现在正在做什么，我们可能还没有听说过。
Miriam:
Miriam：
-
Yeah. I don’t know how many people have heard of the newer toys. True is one in Sass that I think has the most life, but also the smallest niche audience. I’m really curious where that goes. It’s a unit testing tool for Sass, which is I think not useful for most Sass projects. Most Sass projects are designing a site, and there’s no way to unit test that in Sass. If you’re doing something that uses a lot of functions or a lot of mixins, a lot of manipulating variables in some way, then unit testing is useful.
是的 我不知道有多少人听说过这种新玩具。 我认为Sass中的True人生最多，但小众受众最少。 我真的很好奇那去了。 它是Sass的单元测试工具，我认为这对大多数Sass项目没有用。 大多数Sass项目都在设计站点，并且无法在Sass中进行单元测试。 如果您要执行使用大量功能或大量mixin，以某种方式处理大量变量的操作，那么单元测试将非常有用。
So it’s a tool really targeted at people like me who are building tools like Susy or other Sass tools. I hope that’s useful to people. I think that Susy has a shelf life. I’m still surprised that it’s useful to people. I felt like it would die years ago. Just the technology of layouts changes. Browsers are getting better at handling layout. When Susy first came out, it was handling some ten different hacks to make all the browsers work together. You just don’t need that anymore.
因此，这是一个真正针对像我这样正在构建Susy或其他Sass工具之类的人的工具。 我希望这对人们有用。 我认为Susy具有保质期。 我仍然感到惊讶，它对人们有用。 我觉得它会在多年前消失。 只是布局技术会发生变化。 浏览器在处理布局方面越来越好。 Susy刚问世时，它正在处理大约十种不同的黑客攻击，以使所有浏览器协同工作。 您只是不需要了。
So Susy has a shelf life, but unit testing doesn’t in the same way. That’s only going to get more and more useful in the Sass world. But it’s niche.
因此，Susy具有保质期，但是单元测试的方式不同。 这只会在Sass世界中变得越来越有用。 但这是利基。
David:
大卫：
-
I appreciate that, and I think that there are definitely people out there who can take advantage of things like that. And it’s the sort of thing that you don’t get exposed to unless you’re out there in the community, really working with people, I suppose.
我对此表示赞赏，并认为肯定有一些人可以利用这种事情。 我想，除非您在社区中，否则，您不会接触到这种东西，而是与他人真正合作。
Miriam:
Miriam：
-
Yeah. The other tools that I’m playing with — and I haven’t done much to publicly show them (I started to a little bit at the Clarity Conference that you mentioned) — is a set of modular site configuration toolkits, one to handle colors, and one to handle sizes, and one to handle fonts, in such a way that the machine and humans can find the information readable. And that means you can automatically generate style guides from it. You have one source of truth in your documents. I’m finding those fun, but they have a little ways to go before I think they’ll be widely popular.
是的 我正在使用的其他工具-并没有做很多事情来公开展示它们(我在您提到的Clarity Conference上开始了一点)-一组模块化的站点配置工具箱，一个用于处理颜色，一个用于处理大小，一个用于处理字体，以这种方式机器和人类可以找到可读的信息。 这意味着您可以从中自动生成样式指南。 您的文档中只有一个事实来源。 我发现这些功能很有趣，但是在我认为它们会广受欢迎之前，还有一些路要走。
David:
大卫：
-
So, for the listeners out there who might also be attracted to this idea of evangelism, how do you recommend people look at their work and the things that they’re doing and move into that phase?
那么，对于那些可能也会被传福音这个概念所吸引的听众来说，您如何建议人们看待他们的工作，他们正在做的事情并进入这一阶段？
Miriam:
Miriam：
-
Yeah. I would say write down what you learned doing something. And I think that’s always the most interesting thing to share. I’ve talked to lots of people on my team who say their favorite blog posts are the posts written by beginners, because those are the most useful when they’re a beginner. How did you set up this new tool? How did you get it to work? How did you use it for the first time? Those posts are really useful to people. If you figure something out, you may assume that a million people have figured it out before you. But they didn’t write about it. If you figure it out, write it down and share it with people. That’s always going to be useful, and you don’t need to be an expert to do that. In fact, a lot of the expert speakers are proposing talks before they even know the topic. They’ll pick a topic they want to learn, and they’ll propose a talk on that topic, and then they’ll go learn it. It’s a great way to do it. It’s available to everybody.
是的 我会说写下您学到的东西。 我认为这始终是最有趣的事情。 我已经与团队中的很多人进行了交谈，他们说他们最喜欢的博客文章是初学者撰写的文章，因为这些对于初学者来说最有用。 您是如何设置这个新工具的？ 您是如何工作的？ 您是如何第一次使用它的？ 这些帖子对人们真的很有用。 如果您发现问题，则可以假设有一百万人在您之前已经发现了问题。 但是他们没有写这件事。 如果您发现了问题，请写下来并与他人分享。 这将总是有用的，并且您无需成为专家即可做到这一点。 实际上，许多专业演讲者甚至在不知道主题之前就提出演讲建议。 他们将选择他们想要学习的主题，然后提出关于该主题的演讲，然后他们将继续学习。 这是一个很棒的方法。 每个人都可以使用。
Tim [16:15]:
蒂姆[16:15] ：
-
Well, I think I have certainly learned something new, by the way, of how to propose for talks. Maybe I’ll give that a try!
嗯，我想我当然已经学到了一些新的建议进行演讲的方法。 也许我会尝试一下！
Yeah. That was very informative. Thank you so much for stopping by. How can people find you, talk to you, follow you, do all of those things?
是的 那是非常有益的。 太感谢你来坐客了。 人们如何找到您，与您交谈，关注您，做所有这些事情？
Miriam:
Miriam：
-
Yeah. You can go to oddbird.net, and you’ll find plenty of links there. I’m also @mirisuzanne on Twitter, or you can find my website MiriamSuzanne.com.
是的 您可以转到oddbird.net ，然后在其中找到很多链接。 我也是Twitter上的@mirisuzanne ，或者您可以找到我的网站MiriamSuzanne.com 。
David:
大卫：
-
Excellent. We will definitely put links to all of those in the show notes. Miriam, thank you so much for coming by and talking with us today.
优秀的。 我们一定会在展示笔记中添加所有链接。 Miriam，非常感谢您今天过来与我们交谈。
Miriam:
Miriam：
-
Absolutely. Thank you.
绝对。 谢谢。
[Musical interlude]
[音乐插曲]
David:
大卫：
-
I’ve been looking forward to meeting Miriam ever since I saw her talk at Clarity. This was so much fun.
自从看到Miriam在Clarity上的演讲以来，我一直期待着见到Miriam。 这真是太有趣了。
David:
大卫：
-
Yeah. It really was. I haven’t seen her speak, but I certainly was interested, because I know her from the Sass community. I dove into Sass pretty much as soon as I heard about it. One of the things I liked about that community is that it is so large. It’s so extensive. I feel that there’s always something new. I’m always popping in on CodePen, and seeing a demo where someone wrote a whole bunch of math and made a floating cube that spins or something like that. I’ve heard of Susy since, I think, years ago. But yeah, that was very fun, very interesting. I feel like I want to go write some Sass now.
是的 真的是。 我没有看到她讲话，但我当然很感兴趣，因为我从Sass社区认识她。 我一听说它，便立即涉足Sass。 我喜欢该社区的一件事是它是如此之大。 它是如此广泛。 我觉得总会有一些新事物。 我总是在CodePen上弹出视频，并观看一个演示，在该演示中有人编写了一堆数学运算，并制作了一个旋转或类似形式的浮动立方体。 我想，自几年前以来，我就听说过Susy。 但是，是的，这很有趣，很有趣。 我觉得我现在想去写一些Sass。
David:
大卫：
-
I know what you mean. The Sass community also has some of the coolest people in it. You hang around with these folks and you’re impressed how these folks integrate the design side of their life with the coding side of their life. It brings out a really eccentric and interesting personality type, I think.
我知道你的意思。 Sass社区中也有一些最酷的人。 您与这些人闲逛，您对这些人如何将生活的设计方面与生活的编码方面融合在一起印象深刻。 我认为，它展现出一种非常古怪而有趣的个性类型。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
Yeah. It really does. It was never really for me to program in Sass. I’m sure I could do it, but I never came to a point where I was thinking to myself, Let me really try to program in Sass.
That’s coming from someone who writes JavaScript libraries. Maybe not good ones, but I’m certainly not a stranger to programming. But I’ve always admired it from afar, if you know what I mean.
是的 确实如此。 我从来没有真正在Sass中编程。 我敢肯定，我可以做到，但是我从来没有想过要让我
自己思考： 我真的要尝试使用Sass编程。
这来自编写JavaScript库的人。 也许不是很好，但是我当然对编程并不陌生。 但是，如果您知道我的意思，我总是很欣赏它。
David:
大卫：
-
I do. I do. I’m also one of those people. I was using Haml and Sass together as soon as I discovered them. At the time, my language of choice for the back end was PHP. (Don’t hurt me!) I was figuring out ways that I can have my sites dynamically generate the Haml and Sass into the HTML and CSS that I needed from a PHP background.
我做。 我做。 我也是那些人之一。 一发现它们，我就会一起使用Haml和Sass。 当时，我选择的后端语言是PHP。 (不要伤害我！)我在想办法让我的网站动态地将Haml和Sass生成为PHP背景所需HTML和CSS。
So, it’s like these were technologies that sucked me in right from the start.
因此，就像这些技术从一开始就吸引了我。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
O yeah, definitely. One of the things that really piqued my interest was Miriam talking about speaking and getting out there and engaging in the community. I’m very introverted, so I have to force myself to do that. So it’s always nice to talk to someone who gives encouragement — Go out. Meet people. Speak at places. Propose a talk somewhere.
是的，绝对可以。 真正引起我兴趣的一件事是Miriam谈论谈论和离开那里并与社区互动。 我很内向，所以我不得不强迫自己去做。 因此，与鼓励的人交谈总是很高兴的– 外出。
认识人。
在地方说话。
提议在某处演讲。
I think that’s a good reminder — for me, at least — that it’s really just important to go do that stuff. You learn so much.
我认为这是一个很好的提醒-至少对我来说-去做这些事情真的很重要。 你学到了很多。
David:
大卫：
-
She makes it sound so easy. Just start writing things, and start writing what you learn. I think that that’s probably the best piece of advice. Take whatever you’ve recently learned. Write it down not only for the community out there, but also for yourself.
她听起来很简单。 刚开始写东西，然后开始写你所学的东西。 我认为那可能是最好的建议。 接受您最近学到的所有内容。 将其写下来，不仅是为了社区，还是为了自己。
I’ve had the experience where I’ve written myself notes about a tool or a technique, and just posted it up on my blog. And then, searching the internet years later, to try to figure out how to do something, I found I was giving myself advice based on things that I had written years earlier.
我曾经为自己写过有关工具或技术的笔记，然后将其发布在我的博客上。 然后，几年后搜索互联网，试图弄清楚如何做某事，我发现自己正在根据几年前写的东西给自己一些建议。
Tim [19:55]:
蒂姆[19:55] ：
-
Yeah. Actually, on my other screen here have a CodePen demo that I’m trying to work out through my head. It’s nothing crazy. It’s just like if you’re scrolling through an infinite list, once certain items get above the viewport, you want to take them out of that list so that your list doesn’t get too long and your computer doesn’t crash.
是的 实际上，在我的另一个屏幕上，这里有一个CodePen演示，我正试图通过它来解决。 没什么疯狂的。 就像在无限列表中滚动一样，一旦某些项目移到视口上方，您就希望将它们从该列表中移出，这样列表就不会太长并且计算机不会崩溃。
I’m trying to think, all right, how would I write that by myself, not looking for any help, just trying to see, if I were to do this, how would I approach that?
我正在尝试思考，好吧，我将如何独自写出来，不寻求任何帮助，而只是想知道，如果我要这样做，我将如何处理？
Now, nine times out of ten, maybe ten times out of ten, when I do this, it’s like a thousand times worse than the correct way to do something like that, but I always end up learning a ton about either DOM manipulation, or performance, or frame rate, or stuff like that.
现在，当我这样做时，十分之九，甚至十分之十，比做这种事情的正确方法差一千倍，但是我总是最终学到了很多关于DOM操作或性能，帧频或类似的东西。
And again, as soon as she mentioned when you’re doing this, just write it down, I’m thinking to myself, Wow. Here’s a blog post. Just right here.
Stuff about scroll event listeners, and how to batch your read and writes at the same time.
再说一次，当她提到您这样做时，只要写下来，我在想， 哇。
这是一篇博客文章。
就在这里
有关滚动事件侦听器的知识，以及如何同时批处理读写操作。
There’s just a whole bunch of information. If it doesn’t help anybody, it will at least help me one day when I have to remember, Oh, how did I attach that event listener right there?
只有一堆信息。 如果没有帮助任何人，那么至少有一天我必须记住的时候会对我有帮助。 哦，我如何在那儿附加那个事件监听器？
David:
大卫：
-
Exactly. Exactly. And things move so quickly in programming. We’ve discussed this before, and with other guests who’ve been on this show. The fact is that you can’t stay on top of the technology. It’s always changing. Whatever you’re learning today, there’s somebody out there who hasn’t learned it yet. And there’s somebody out there who’s going to need it next. Just sharing that with people and putting it out there, it’s benevolent for the community, and it also helps support who you are, and puts your name out there so that you can then start meeting people who are working in the same things that you’re working on, and maybe develop those communities.
究竟。 究竟。 在编程中，事情进展如此之快。 我们之前已经和其他参加过本次演出的嘉宾讨论过这一点。 事实是您不能紧跟技术潮流。 它总是在变化。 无论您今天在学什么，都有些人还没有学习。 而且外面有人需要它。 只是与人们共享并发布给社区，这对社区是有益的，它还有助于支持您的身份，并将您的名字发布在那里，以便您随后可以结识从事与您相同工作的人们重新努力，也许发展那些社区。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
Yes, definitely. One thing that I do want to touch in, I think it is a little bit of a privilege for at least people like you and me who actually can afford to go to meetups outside of work. Because there are people who, for example, have a family to take care of. There are people who are working two jobs at once and don’t have that space to do those things.
当然是。 我确实想谈谈一件事，我认为至少对于像您和我这样的人来说，这确实是一种特权，他们实际上有能力参加工作以外的聚会。 因为有些人有一个家庭要照顾。 有些人一次只能做两项工作，却没有足够的空间去做那些事情。
I certainly don’t have the answer, but I’m curious what the solution is for people who find themselves in that position, who would love to go to these things but genuinely really just can’t manage to make it work for them.
我当然没有答案，但是我很好奇对于找到适合自己的人的解决方案是什么，他们愿意去做这些事情，但实际上确实无法使它对他们有用。
David:
大卫：
-
That’s a legitimate challenge, and I believe that there are people out there; you don’t meet them, because they don’t come to the meetups, because they can’t make it to the meetups. But of course, you and I are also living in New York and San Francisco.
这是一个合理的挑战，我相信那里有人。 您不会遇到他们，因为他们不会参加聚会，因为他们无法参加聚会。 但是，当然，您和我也住在纽约和旧金山。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
Yes.
是。
David:
大卫：
-
That is a privilege in and of itself, and we have immediate access to a large community of people. There are people living outside of these great metropolitan centers that do not have such easy access. If it’s not online, and they can’t access it in the time that they have available, it’s just not going to get to them.
这本身就是一种特权，我们可以立即与广大的人建立联系。 有些人居住在这些大都市中心之外，交通不便。 如果它不在线，并且他们在有空的时候无法访问它，那将是无法联系到他们的原因。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
I think it would be helpful for these events. For example, right now as we’re recording this, it’s July. In a couple of weeks, I’m going to go to a CodePen meetup and give a quick talk. Those smaller events, while they are not big conferences, I think it helps as much as you can to try and get that stuff on video. Make sure people can interact with what you’re doing from home if they can’t be there in person, because that way it can still benefit.
我认为这对这些事件会有所帮助。 例如，现在我们正在记录，现在是七月。 在几周后，我将去参加CodePen聚会，并做一个简短的演讲。 那些较小的活动虽然不是大型会议，但我认为尝试将这些内容录入视频会有所帮助。 如果人们不能亲自到场，请确保人们可以与您在家中所做的事情进行互动，因为这样做仍然可以使您受益。
You definitely won’t get as much of the networking value out of it, but you will at least not be left out. You’ll be able to see what’s going on. And I, for one, love to load up videos of talks when I can, because, again, you continue to learn so much from those sorts of things, and it helps when they’re available for people who can’t make it to those events.
您肯定不会从中获得太多的网络价值，但是至少您不会被排除在外。 您将能够看到发生了什么。 我(一个人)喜欢在可能的时候加载演讲视频，因为同样，您继续从这些事情中学到很多东西，并且当无法使用这些东西的人可以使用时，它会有所帮助。这些事件。
David:
大卫：
-
Right. Actually, on that note, I believe Miriam’s talk at Clarity in San Francisco a few months back is up on SitePoint Premium right now. But I spoke recently with the founder, Jina, who founded the Clarity Conference. She said that she made an arrangement with SitePoint that 6 months after we’ve got published on SitePoint Premium, she’s going to be releasing all the videos from Clarity, which was a conference about design systems.
对。 实际上， 就此而言 ，我相信Miriam几个月前在旧金山Clarity的演讲现在在SitePoint Premium上得到了支持。 但是我最近与创立了清晰度会议的创始人Jina进行了交谈。 她说，她与SitePoint达成了一项安排，即在我们在SitePoint Premium上发布6个月后，她将发布Clarity的所有视频，Clarity是关于设计系统的会议。
She’s going to release them for free, so that anybody can see them — including Miriam’s talk. That’s exactly the sort of thing — making these presentations accessible to the community, it’s so valuable. It brings everybody together.
她将免费发布它们，以便任何人都可以看到它们-包括Miriam的讲话。 事情就是这样-使这些演示文稿可供社区访问，这是如此有价值。 它使每个人都聚集在一起。
Tim [24:10]:
提姆[24:10] ：
-
Yeah. That’s excellent news. That’s great to hear. If you’re listening to this and you’re interested, I’m sure we will have a link to that in the show notes, and go and learn and be prosperous.
是的 那是个好消息。 听到这个消息我很高兴。 如果您正在听此书并且感兴趣，那么我相信我们会在展会记录中提供指向该链接的链接，然后继续学习并取得成功。
David:
大卫：
-
I like that. That’s good advice for anybody.
我喜欢。 这对任何人都是很好的建议。
The other thing about Miriam is the way that she blends art and coding. I don’t know if you’ve gone and looked, but she has a novel that she released in the form of a box of index cards that you can mix and match and shuffle together. It’s just brilliant. It’s like, who comes up with that approach to writing?
关于Miriam的另一件事是她融合艺术和编码的方式。 我不知道你是否去过那里，但是她有一本小说，她以一盒索引卡的形式发布了 ，你可以将它们混合搭配和混洗。 真是太好了。 就像谁提出了这种写作方法？
David:
大卫：
-
That is amazing. That’s like, not only do you have to be a good writer, but then it’s mixed into this art form. That’s incredible.
这是惊人的。 就像，不仅您必须成为一名优秀的作家，而且还把它融入了这种艺术形式。 这是令人难以置信的。
I always admire people who can mix things like programming and art and draw inspiration from the other. I don’t actually publish anything, but I do write a lot in my spare time. But I haven’t yet been able to mix the two. After hearing Miriam talk about her process and how she goes about making that happen, I think I might try. Not publicly, mind you, but I might try where nobody can see.
我总是很钦佩那些可以将编程和艺术融合在一起并从中汲取灵感的人。 我实际上没有发布任何东西，但是我确实在业余时间写了很多东西。 但是我还不能将两者混为一谈。 在听到Miriam谈论她的过程以及如何实现这一目标之后，我想我可以尝试。 请注意，这不是公开的，但是我可以尝试在没人能看到的地方。
[Laughter]
[笑声]
David:
大卫：
-
At some point somebody’s going to see, and then it’s going to get interesting. I encourage you. I’m looking forward to reading what you’ve been working on on the side there.
在某个时候，有人会看到，然后变得很有趣。 我鼓励你。 我期待着阅读您在该方面所做的工作。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
Yes. All right. Sounds good. One day. One day.
是。 行。 听起来不错。 一天。 一天。
David:
大卫：
-
One day. One day. Yeah. One day people will see my creative prose as well. I do occasionally release a little bit of short fiction, a little bit of poetry, but it doesn’t consume the work that I do. I like putting it out there, and I like getting a little bit of feedback for it. It’s a tentative thing. You’re not sure who’s going to see these things, what kind of reaction you’re going to get. You have to be open to anybody possibly responding and the way that they’re going to respond from wherever they happen to be coming from.
一天。 一天。 是的 有一天，人们也会看到我的创意散文。 我偶尔会发布一些短篇小说，一些诗歌，但是并不会消耗我的作品。 我喜欢把它放在那里，并且我希望得到一点反馈。 这是暂时的事情。 您不确定谁会看到这些东西，您会得到什么样的React。 您必须对可能做出响应的任何人以及他们从何处来的响应方式持开放态度。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
First off, that’s really cool. I didn’t know you’re into writing. We should compare some time.
首先，这真的很酷。 我不知道你在写东西。 我们应该比较一些时间。
That brings me to an idea now. What if we do an episode where we have guests come on and we just talk about stuff you like to do outside of writing code? I think that might be a little bit interesting.
现在，我想到了一个主意。 如果我们在一个有客人来的情节中演出，而我们只是谈论您喜欢在编写代码之外做的事情怎么办？ 我认为这可能有点有趣。
David:
大卫：
-
It’s definitely something we should integrate into what we ask people about, because we’ve talked to a few people now and we’ve talked mostly about the code work that they’ve done. Like Ken Wheeler we spoke with: he was talking a lot about the music that he does, and that’s cool. That plays into this idea that coding doesn’t have to consume your whole life in order for you to be successful and to enjoy it.
这绝对是我们应该整合到我们所要询问的人中的东西，因为我们现在已经与几个人进行了交谈，并且我们主要谈论的是他们所做的代码工作。 就像我们和肯·惠勒(Ken Wheeler)一样：他在谈论自己演奏的音乐，这很酷。 这就是这样的想法，即编码不必为了使您成功并享受它而花费一生。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
In fact, I think I’m starting to learn this a lot — doing stuff outside of spending all your time on open-source work, and writing talks and coding, is helpful. It makes you a better coder, and a better developer, or a better designer.
实际上，我认为我已经开始学到很多东西-在花费所有时间从事开源工作以及编写演讲和编码之外做一些事情是有帮助的。 它使您成为更好的程序员，更好的开发人员或更好的设计师。
David:
大卫：
-
I would definitely agree with that.
我绝对同意。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
Good stuff.
好东西。
David:
大卫：
-
Well, thank you so much for listening, everybody. We always enjoy getting to talk technology with all of you.
好，非常感谢大家的倾听。 我们总是喜欢与大家交谈技术。
Tim:
蒂姆：
-
We would also like to thank SitePoint.com, and our producers, Adam Roberts and Ophelie Lechat. Please feel free to send us your comments on Twitter — @versioningshow — and give us a rating on iTunes to let us know how we’re doing.
我们还要感谢SitePoint.com以及我们的制片人Adam Roberts和Ophelie Lechat。 请随时在Twitter( @versioningshow)上向我们发送您的评论，并在iTunes上给我们评分 ，让我们知道我们的情况。
David:
大卫：
-
We’ll see you next time, and we hope you enjoyed this version.
下次见，我们希望您喜欢这个版本。
