Episode 61 of The SitePoint Podcast is now available! This week your hosts are Patrick O’Keefe (@iFroggy), Stephan Segraves (@ssegraves), and Kevin Yank (@sentience).
SitePoint Podcast的 第61集现已发布！ 本周的主持人是Patrick O'Keefe( @iFroggy )，Stephan Segraves( @ssegraves )和Kevin Yank( @sentience )。
下载此剧集 (Download this Episode)
You can also download this episode as a standalone MP3 file. Here’s the link:
您也可以将本集下载为独立的MP3文件。 这是链接：
-
SitePoint Podcast #61: HTML5 = The Kitchen Sink
(MP3, 45.1MB, 49:09)
SitePoint播客＃61：HTML5 =厨房水槽
(MP3，45.1MB，49:09)
剧集摘要 (Episode Summary)
Here are the topics covered in this episode:
以下是本集中介绍的主题：
- Global Grind Content Theft Update 全球研磨内容盗窃更新
- HTML5 the Marketing Term vs HTML5 the Specification HTML5营销术语与HTML5规范
Browse the full list of links referenced in the show at http://delicious.com/sitepointpodcast/61.
浏览http://delicious.com/sitepointpodcast/61中显示的参考链接的完整列表。
主持人聚光灯 (Host Spotlights)
显示成绩单 (Show Transcript)
Kevin: May 14th, 2010. There’s HTML5 and then there’s HTML5, but what’s the difference? Plus: Patrick updates us on the Global Grind content theft. I’m Kevin Yank and this is the SitePoint Podcast #61: HTML5 = The Kitchen Sink.
凯文： 2010年5月14日。出现HTML5，然后出现HTML5，但是有什么区别？ 另外：Patrick向我们更新了有关Global Grind内容盗窃的信息。 我是Kevin Yank，这是SitePoint播客＃61：HTML5 =厨房水槽。
And we’re back with another news and commentary episode.
我们又回来了另一则新闻和评论。
I, of course, am Kevin Yank and joined today by Patrick O’Keefe and Stephan Seagraves.
我当然是凯文·扬克(Kevin Yank)，今天派出了帕特里克·奥基夫(Patrick O'Keefe)和斯蒂芬·希格雷夫斯(Stephan Seagraves)。
Brad is hosting some sort of Word Press meetup or something like that at the moment.
布拉德目前正在主持某种形式的Word Press聚会。
He’s a hard working guy so we gave him the week off. Seemed like he deserved it, right guys?
他是一个勤奋的人，所以我们给了他一周的假期。 看起来像他应得的，对吧？
Patrick: Eh.
帕特里克：嗯。
Stephan: Meh.
史蒂芬：嗯。
Kevin: (laugh) So, you know, it feels like it’s been a busy couple of weeks, but it’s been busy with a lot of the stuff we were talking about. I think we’re on top of most of the stuff that happened, there’s not a lot to say. The last time we were together we were talking about the Palm Web OS situation and almost immediately after we finished recording Hewlett Packard came in and bought Palm. So we’ll talk a bit today about what that may mean and some of the buzz words that are being thrown around perhaps incorrectly.
凯文：(笑)所以，您知道，这感觉已经忙了几周，但是却忙于我们正在谈论的许多事情。 我认为我们是所有发生的事情中的佼佼者，没有什么可说的。 上一次我们在一起时，我们谈论的是Palm Web OS的情况，几乎在我们完成录制Hewlett Packard的记录后不久，Palm就进入了Palm。 因此，我们今天将讨论可能的含义以及可能被错误地抛出的一些流行语。
But before we do an update on a story— another update from a story last week, Patrick?
但是在我们更新一个故事之前-上周一个故事的另一个更新，帕特里克？
Patrick: Update, update, update. So last week we talked about Global Grind. It was a story that I wrote about on my personal blog. Basically, to summarize, Global Grind is or was a kind of social news and blog network hybrid, think Digg for a kind of a hip hop/urban community. I found that they were scraping content from many sites; scraping articles in full without really — and the attribution that they provided; it was similar to the Digg bar but worse because there was no direct link. It was all through their bar; all external links were through this sort of top bar. And, of course, then you have the issue of the links being with content that is completely taken away. So fair use is out the window when you excerpt nothing and you take the entire work.
帕特里克：更新，更新，更新。 所以上周我们谈论了全球磨削。 这是我在个人博客上写的一个故事。 总而言之，总体而言，Global Grind是或曾经是社交新闻和博客网络的混合体，请以Digg为代表的一种嘻哈/城市社区。 我发现他们正在抓取来自许多站点的内容。 在没有真正刮取文章的情况下-及其提供的属性； 它类似于Digg栏，但更糟，因为没有直接链接。 都是通过他们的酒吧； 所有外部链接都通过这种顶部栏。 当然，然后您会遇到链接被完全删除的内容的问题。 因此，当您不摘录任何内容并承担整个工作时，合理使用便已无人问津。
They were doing it to my site and that’s how I took notice. I tried to contact them privately and we talked and no action. Weeks later — so I wrote my post. It got a lot of attention on Twitter and on Facebook, 114 tweets and 17 shares as we talk right now and probably within six days Global Grind addressed most of the issues, and shortly thereafter they addressed the rest of them. To address the full text scraping they now quote excerpts and all of the past content has been cut down to an excerpt. They say they will quote no more than 250 characters, which puts them in line with Digg, for example, which quotes no more than 350 or allows you to enter a description of no more than 350. Their top bar is dead completely in every aspect; it’s no longer linked on their site. The old links that were through it now go to their site, the page on their site for that article. There is no more framed content so that part of it is gone. Like I said, the content is excerpted, and even better, the links on their site are now all direct links since there’s no bar to pass them through. They’ve said they won’t scrape content in the future, content scraping, that’s done with and if they take any work from any other site it will be excerpted again at 250 characters. And they added also a more visible source link where previously they had a link on the article page itself. Now they have a more bold link on that page and also a mention on the index page which, again, puts them in line with Digg.
他们正在我的网站上这样做，这就是我注意到的方式。 我试图私下与他们联系，我们进行了交谈，但没有采取任何行动。 几周后-所以我写了我的帖子。 我们现在就在Twitter上和Facebook上引起了广泛关注，有114条推文和17股股票，我们可能在六天内就被Global Grind解决了大部分问题，此后不久又解决了其余问题。 为了解决全文抓取的问题，他们现在引用摘录，而过去的所有内容都被简化为摘录。 他们说，他们引用的字符数不能超过250个，这使它们与Digg保持一致，例如，Digg引用的字符数不超过350个，或者允许您输入的字符数不超过350个。 ; 它不再链接到他们的网站上。 现在通过它的旧链接转到其站点，即该文章在其站点上的页面。 没有更多的框架内容，因此一部分内容消失了。 就像我说的，内容是摘录的，更好的是，他们网站上的链接现在都是直接链接，因为没有酒吧可以通过它们。 他们表示，将来不会抓取内容，而抓取是这样，如果他们从任何其他网站上进行任何工作，则将再次摘录250个字符。 他们还添加了一个更加可见的源链接，以前他们在文章页面本身上有一个链接。 现在，他们在该页面上有一个更粗体的链接，并且在索引页面上也有提及，再次使它们与Digg保持一致。
So all in all they addressed all of my concerns and appear to be operating on the up and up at this point.
因此，总而言之，他们解决了我所有的担忧，并且似乎在不断发展。
Kevin: Yeah. So you would now consider them a good citizen of the Web.
凯文：是的。 因此，您现在将其视为网络的良好公民。
Patrick: Well, yes, I would consider them a good citizen of the web based on how they are right now. Now, of course, this has to continue, they can’t revert back and, of course, I would say that full text scraping isn’t something that should happen with any legitimate outfit. It’s not something that necessarily I should have to point out. A company with this amount of funding and people behind it should never have run into this type of issue. So the issues here are simply wrong. The full text scraping not so much, the bar, the changes only happened once I pointed it out and put it in public. And they still haven’t acknowledged it publicly the issue itself. They’ve fixed it but nothing publicly mentioned about it.
帕特里克：嗯，是的，根据他们现在的状况，我认为他们是网络的好公民。 现在，当然，这必须继续下去，他们无法还原，当然，我要说的是，使用任何合法服装都不应该进行全文检索。 我不一定必须指出这一点。 拥有如此数量的资金并且拥有大量资金的公司永远都不会遇到这类问题。 因此，这里的问题完全是错误的。 全文没有那么多内容，栏，这些更改仅在我指出并公开之后才发生。 而且他们仍然尚未公开承认问题本身。 他们已修复它，但没有公开提及。
And a couple of their editors actually came and mentioned — one was rather attacking toward me, and another was kind of making excuses.
实际上，他们的几个编辑来了并提到-一个是向我发动攻击，另一个是在找借口。
Kevin: Hmm. So those responses from the editors were really interesting to me. I mean I guess we need to be fair and say that was their own opinions not endorsed by their own employer.
凯文：嗯。 因此，编辑的这些回复对我来说真的很有趣。 我的意思是我想我们需要保持公平，并说那是他们自己的观点，而不是他们自己的雇主所认可。
Obviously someone at Global Grind agreed with you or at least was forced to agree with you after you brought the issue out in public. But one of the editors criticizing you by saying that you can’t be a hater, you have to be willing to work with people on the Web; hearing you telling the story before they finally caved, it seemed to me like you were the one that was trying to work with them and they were the ones who wouldn’t answer your email.
显然，Global Grind的某个人同意了您的要求，或者至少在您公开发布此问题之后被迫同意您的要求。 但是其中一位编辑批评您，说您不能成为仇恨者，您必须愿意与网络上的人们一起工作。 听到您在他们最终陷入困境之前就讲了这个故事，在我看来，您就像是一个试图与他们合作的人，而他们却是不会回答您电子邮件的人。
Patrick: Right. Weeks before, four weeks before I even published this article I had spoken to them about it and they had said we could do this, we could do that, but they didn’t actually do anything. Now there was some response, in some cases I had to send two emails to get a response, but they didn’t take action and that’s what led me to write the post. And what the editor said is like you said, it’s just their opinion, it’s not necessarily a reflection of Global Grind. But, you know, it was interesting to watch, overall the response was pretty positive from people, but in this case the editor wasn’t happy with me and said that I was lying and hating and that’s a problem, I think, and something I point out in the post is the idea of criticism being hating is something that is prevalent in some areas, especially in entertainment and music especially. Where you have a lot of musicians, a lot of artists on Twitter, and so on, and if you criticize their work you’re a hater. And that kind of disposition just leaves you to be surrounded by yes men, yes women, and enablers where we never get better. And that’s the same thing for anything whether it be a web designer or a musician.
帕特里克：对。 几周前，甚至在我发表这篇文章的四个星期之前，我就曾与他们交谈过，他们说我们可以做到，我们可以做到，但是他们实际上什么也没做。 现在有一些回应，在某些情况下，我不得不发送两封电子邮件以得到回应，但是他们没有采取任何行动，这就是促使我撰写该帖子的原因。 编辑说的就像您说的，只是他们的意见，不一定反映Global Grind。 但是，您知道，观察很有趣，总体上，人们的React是非常积极的，但是在这种情况下，编辑对我不满意，并说我在撒谎和讨厌，这是一个问题，我想我在帖子中指出，批评仇恨的想法在某些领域非常普遍，尤其是在娱乐和音乐领域。 那里有很多音乐家，Twitter上还有很多艺术家，等等，如果您批评他们的作品，您会很讨厌。 这样的性格只会让您被男人，女人和推动者所包围，而我们永远不会变得更好。 无论是网页设计师还是音乐家，这都是同一回事。
Kevin: So the other thing that surprised me, the responses you got from people who said they knew this was — like content creators, people who their career is hinging on their ability to create and publish and benefit from successful content on the Web who were replying to you and saying, yeah, I kind of knew this was going on, and it really sucked but I didn’t know you could do anything about it. People who write content on the Web and who had never heard of a DMCA take down notice? I found that shocking.
凯文：让我惊讶的另一件事是，您说他们知道这的人的答复是，例如内容创建者，他们的职业生涯依赖于他们创建和发布并从中受益于网络上成功内容的能力的人。回复您并说，是的，我有点知道这种情况正在发生，而且确实很糟糕，但我不知道您对此无能为力。 在网上编写内容并且从未听说过DMCA的人会留下通知吗？ 我感到震惊。
Patrick: You know, I don’t know what phenomenon that can be tied to. I think in some cases that was people who were maybe not — this isn’t a career, and for others it is something that, hey, they would be happy if it became a career. But, you know —
帕特里克：你知道，我不知道可以联系什么现象。 我认为在某些情况下可能不是的人-这不是职业，而对于另一些人来说，嘿，如果成为职业，他们会很高兴。 但是，你知道-
Kevin: Well, I’d like to go over that for the benefit of our listeners because if you are a content creator and even if that just means that you’re a blogger and every once in a while you really hope that one of your blog posts will get highlighted, take off in a big way and make you some Google AdWords money, you’ve got a horse in this game, and you have some powerful tools at your disposal to assert your ownership over your own content.
凯文：好吧，我想为听众的利益着想，因为如果您是内容创建者，即使这仅意味着您是博客作者，而且偶尔您真的希望您中的一个博客文章将被突出显示，并大有斩获，并为您带来了一些Google AdWords的收益，您在这场比赛中一马当先，并且可以使用一些强大的工具来维护对自己内容的所有权。
Patrick: You do, and it’s something that I’m familiar with from my own writing and having a book and stuff and having that pirated and having to take care of it. The DMCA is controversial, a lot of people are critical of it, but if it’s used in its intended way it’s actually very helpful where it doesn’t discriminate based on your amount of income or how large you are. A major company, an individual, they both file the same essential notice, this DMCA notice, that goes to a host of the content. Now that can — in this case Global Grind might be a host, Digg, for example, is a host; if they list an item on their site in their index that is pirated then you can file a DMCA notice with them. But most often it goes to the web host and then the web host, at least if they’re based in the U.S., and other countries have similar acts in many cases, some don’t, but they are forced to take the content offline, disable access to it, or they themselves could then be held liable for it.
帕特里克(Patrick)：是的，从我自己的写作，有一本书和一本东西开始，我很熟悉这件事，并且盗版并必须加以照顾。 数字千年版权法案(DMCA)引起争议，很多人对此持批评态度，但是如果以预定方式使用它，在不根据您的收入或收入多少进行区分的情况下，它实际上非常有用。 一家大型公司(一个人)都提交了相同的基本通知，即DMCA通知，该通知用于其中的许多内容。 现在可以-在这种情况下，Global Grind可能是主机，例如Digg是主机； 如果他们在其网站上的索引中列出了被盗版的项目，那么您可以向他们提交DMCA通知。 但是最常见的情况是先到达网络托管商，然后再进入网络托管商，至少如果它们位于美国，并且在许多情况下其他国家/地区也有类似的行为，有些则没有，但是他们被迫将内容脱机，禁止访问它，否则他们自己可能对此承担责任。
Now, it is built for abuse as well. I’ve had a false DMCA notice filed against me once. And you can counter-notice if you completely believe and know that you are in the right, and your host will have to put that content back up. Then the onus is placed on the person who placed the original claim because now they can sue you because you’ve taken liability for that content that you’ve taken. So it’s a powerful thing. It can be confusing the first time. There’s a great resource that I always recommend; it’s Plagiarism Today, and plagiarismtoday.com, and the author is Jonathan Bailey and he has just a ton of resources at the top of the site if you click on ‘stop internet plagiarism’ he walks you through the entire thing. And the first time it may take 20 minutes, a half hour, but after you take care of it that first time you have your template; it’s really only a minute or two, if that, to file future notices.
现在，它也为滥用而构建。 我曾经有一次针对我的虚假DMCA通知。 如果您完全相信并知道自己是对的，那么您可以提出反通知，而您的房东将不得不备份该内容。 然后，由最初提出索赔的人承担责任，因为现在他们可以起诉您，因为您已对自己承担的内容承担责任。 因此，这是很强大的事情。 第一次可能会造成混乱。 我一直建议您提供大量资源。 它是今天的Pla窃和plagiarismtoday.com ，作者是Jonathan Bailey，如果您单击“停止互联网gi窃”，他将在站点顶部拥有大量资源，他将带您逐步了解整个过程。 第一次可能需要20分钟半小时，但是在您处理完之后，第一次有了模板。 提交通知实际上只需要一两分钟。
Kevin: So, I mentioned the other story from our last big news episode that we’re going to update today, and that is the Palm story. We were talking about Palm, and I think Brad said “speaking of things that are failing, Palm.”
凯文：所以，我提到了我们上一次要更新的上一则重大新闻中的另一个故事，那就是Palm的故事。 我们当时谈论的是Palm，我认为Brad说的是“谈论失败的事物，Palm。”
Patrick: And now he disappeared.
帕特里克：现在他不见了。
Kevin: Yeah.
凯文：是的。
Patrick: So, take that for what it’s worth folks.
帕特里克(Patrick)：所以，把它当作值得人们买的东西。
Kevin: Hmm, interesting indeed. Yeah, but immediately after the show Palm sort of got a new lease on life depending on your point of view. Hewlett Packard went and bought them. And there’s a lot of speculation out there over why they bought them and what exactly they’re going to do with the different pieces of what Palm does. Reading what Hewlett Packard has said on the subject, which is not a whole lot, reading their stuff though they seem to be really excited about the operating system that runs on Palm’s current phone devices, and that is WebOS. And the core of that operating system is written around the idea that you will build applications using web technologies—HTML, CSS, and JavaScript.
凯文：嗯，确实很有趣。 是的，但是在演出之后，Palm会立即根据您的观点重新获得生命。 惠普去买了它们。 关于为什么他们购买它们以及他们将如何处理Palm所做的不同部分，有很多猜测。 阅读Hewlett Packard关于该主题的内容，虽然不是很多，但阅读它们的内容，尽管他们似乎对运行在Palm当前电话设备(即WebOS)上的操作系统感到非常兴奋。 该操作系统的核心是围绕您将使用Web技术(HTML，CSS和JavaScript)构建应用程序的想法而编写的。
Palm had recently announced a native SDK for building native apps like games and things like that on these devices, but that was really not the core and they were still encouraging developers who are building apps suited to that sort of platform to use web technologies wherever possible. Now, so the rumor mill is spinning of course as usual, and people are saying, oh, Hewlett Packard is making a bet here on the Web as an application platform; they’re going to throw away all of Palm’s phones that no one is buying, and what they’re going to do is build a tablet device of some kind to compete with the 800 pound gorilla in this space now, which is Apple, compete with them and bring out a tablet device that has an application platform built on web technologies. And, yeah, people are talking. Lots of people are talking. Not least of which is Steve Jobs who posted a gigantic open letter to the Web called Thoughts on Flash. And I have promised our listeners not to descend into iPhone propaganda for at least another couple of months.
Palm最近宣布了一个本机SDK，用于在这些设备上构建诸如游戏和类似内容的本机应用，但这并不是核心，他们仍在鼓励开发适合该平台的应用的开发人员尽可能使用Web技术。 。 现在，谣言工厂照常运转，人们在说，哦，惠普在这里打赌作为应用程序平台。 他们将扔掉没人买的Palm的所有手机，而他们要做的是制造一种平板电脑设备来与现在这个领域的800磅大猩猩竞争，这就是Apple。与他们一起，推出具有基于Web技术的应用程序平台的平板电脑设备。 是的，人们在说话。 很多人在说话。 史蒂夫·乔布斯(Steve Jobs)尤其重要，他在网络上发布了一封名为“ Thoughts on Flash”的公开信。 我已经保证我们的听众至少在接下来的几个月内不会参与iPhone的宣传。
Patrick: But you lie! Ha, ha, ha.
帕特里克：但是你说谎！ 哈哈哈哈
Kevin: Ah-ha-ha-ha! No, I’m going to do my best — let’s do our best to avoid that aspect of this.
凯文：啊哈哈哈！ 不，我将尽我所能-让我们尽最大努力避免这种情况。
Patrick: It’s a good letter.
帕特里克：这是一封好信。
Kevin: What I’m interested in, in this letter though, is that when Steve Jobs holds up Flash and says that this is not something we want to support on our devices, the alternative he presents is this thing called HTML5. And I don’t know about you guys but I’m finding any time HTML5 is mentioned these days I have to do a lot of work to figure out exactly what it is they’re talking about.
凯文(Kevin)：我对这封信感兴趣的是，当史蒂夫·乔布斯(Steve Jobs)举起Flash并说这不是我们要在设备上支持的东西时，他提出的替代方法是称为HTML5的东西。 我不了解你们，但是我发现这些天任何时候提到HTML5时，我都必须做很多工作才能弄清楚他们在说什么。
Patrick: I have to do that every time someone mentions HTML, so I’m with you.
帕特里克：每当有人提到HTML时，我都必须这样做，所以我与你在一起。
Kevin: (laughs) Stephan do you know what I mean?
凯文：(笑)斯蒂芬，你知道我的意思吗？
Stephan: Yeah, it’s kind of — it’s a boondoggle I think is the best way to describe it. It’s being thrown at you, you know.
斯蒂芬：是的，这是一种-我认为这是描述它的最佳方法。 你知道，它被扔给你了。
Kevin: (whispers) What’s a boondoggle?
凯文：(低语)什么是笨蛋？
Patrick: You just made people think more.
帕特里克：您只是让人们多想些事情。
Stephan: Look that one up.
史蒂芬：看看那一个。
Well, I think that there’s just so much going on right now with HTML5, and people are doing different things and we’re seeing cool things developed with it and then cool examples. Everyone’s getting in this idea that we can make an app that performs like Flash with HTML5. And it’s kind of like hmm, uh, yeah, I don’t know. I’m still — I’m a little torn.
好吧，我认为HTML5现在有很多事情要做，人们正在做不同的事情，我们看到了用它开发的很酷的东西，然后是很酷的示例。 每个人都开始意识到我们可以制作一个性能类似于Flash和HTML5的应用程序。 有点像，嗯，是的，我不知道。 我还是-我有点撕裂。
Kevin: Yeah. So, there’s this blog post, this essay sort of thing by a web developer named Ben Ward called Understand the Web. And he kind of goes off on a semi-unfocused rant about these issues; he’s a bit all over the place with it, but I tend to agree with most of what he says, he’s just saying a lot of different things. But one of the things he says is that “HTML5 now refers to a collection of related client-side technologies branded together as a product. It is no longer just a hypertext specification document, and everything that concerns document semantics is being ignored anyway.” So, let’s unpack that a little.
凯文：是的。 因此，这是一篇博客文章，是由名叫Ben Ward的网络开发人员撰写的一篇名为Understand the Web的文章 。 对于这些问题，他有点不专心。 他到处都是，但我倾向于同意他的大部分意见，他只是在说很多不同的话。 但他说的一件事是：“ HTML5现在是指将相关的客户端技术集合在一起作为产品品牌。 它不再只是一个超文本规范文档，而且与文档语义有关的所有内容都将被忽略。” 因此，让我们稍微打开一下包装。
What he’s saying is that we have HTML5, this tag language, and if you open up Dreamweaver and start writing HTML code, there is a new specification coming called HTML5 that adds some new tags and clarifies the rules around how browsers read those documents, and to call that HTML5 is quite correct. But that specification all by itself is not going to take on Flash, is not going to power WebOS as the next mobile application platform; you have to add a lot of stuff to it. So, there’s HTML5, this document language standard that is being worked on, and then there’s HTML5 this mystical product that every time people say it’s not good enough to do something, people expand the definition to go, oh, well, if we also add some new JavaScript features to HTML5 they weren’t part of HTML5 yesterday, but today they are because we need HTML5 to be able to do this so it can take on Flash.
他的意思是，我们拥有HTML5(这种标记语言)，如果您打开Dreamweaver并开始编写HTML代码，就会有一个名为HTML5的新规范，它将添加一些新标记并阐明浏览器如何阅读这些文档的规则，并且认为HTML5是非常正确的。 但是，该规范本身不会取代Flash，也不会使WebOS成为下一个移动应用程序平台。 您必须添加很多东西。 因此，正在开发HTML5(该文档语言标准)，然后发布HTML5这个神秘的产品，每当人们说做某事不够好时，人们都会扩展定义，哦，好吧，如果我们还要添加HTML5的一些新JavaScript功能昨天不是HTML5的一部分，但是今天是因为我们需要HTML5才能够做到这一点，以便可以在Flash上使用。
So this product name, HTML5, is this ever expanding definition of things, it’s this tool kit to take on the Flash technology of the world, and we’re constantly chucking more stuff into that tool box so that HTML5 is becoming this big, heavy thing that you have to lug around every time you want to get into a fight with Flash.
因此，这个产品名称HTML5就是对事物的不断扩展的定义，它是采用世界上Flash技术的工具套件，并且我们不断在该工具箱中添加更多内容，以使HTML5变得如此庞大，沉重每当您想与Flash战斗时，都必须四处寻找。
Stephan, you sent around this link to a slide show about HTML5.
Stephan，您已通过此链接发送到有关HTML5的幻灯片放映 。
Stephan: It was done in HTML5.
史蒂芬：这是用HTML5完成的。
Kevin: Yeah. It’s really impressive. But this now, this slide show for me is about HTML5 the product, not HTML5 the standard for documents. So, one of the very first slides says, I think this is slide four, it says HTML5 is roughly equal to HTML plus CSS plus JavaScript APIs. Now correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t that the entire Web?
凯文：是的。 真是令人印象深刻。 但是现在，此幻灯片演示对我来说是关于HTML5产品的，而不是关于文档标准HTML5。 因此，第一张幻灯片中的一张说，我认为这是第四张幻灯片，它说HTML5大致等于HTML加CSS加JavaScript API。 如果我错了，现在纠正我，但那不是整个网络吗？
Stephan: Yeah, why don’t you just call it web technologies? I mean HTML5 is just to me it’s always been the spec. I mean back when we first started talking about HTML5 that’s what it was, right? When we first started talking about the spec we were like, ooh, this is a new tag that they’re adding, you know, and this is ones they’ve taken out. That was what we were talking about. Now we’re talking about Ajax and Geo Location and kinds of — and I never thought of that stuff as HTML5. I think it’s really throwing people, and I think it’s going to continue to throw people.
斯蒂芬：是的，为什么不把它叫做网络技术呢？ 我的意思是HTML5对我来说一直都是规范。 我的意思是，当我们刚开始谈论HTML5时，是这样，对吗？ 当我们刚开始谈论规格时，哦，这是他们添加的新标签，这是他们删除的标签。 那就是我们所说的。 现在，我们谈论的是Ajax和地理位置以及其他种类-我从来没有想到过HTML5。 我认为这确实是在扔人，而且我认为它将继续在扔人。
Kevin: Yeah, the timeline in this presentation on the slide three is pretty interesting as well. It presents a rough timeline of web technologies. But for me I would say this isn’t a timeline of web technologies, this is a timeline of hot web buzz words. In 1991 everyone was excited about HTML. Just HTML by itself was exciting enough. People were all excited about these things called web browsers that could display HTML.
凯文：是的，第三张幻灯片中的演示时间表也很有趣。 它提出了Web技术的大致时间表。 但是对我来说，这不是网络技术的时间表，这是热门网络流行语的时间表。 1991年，每个人都对HTML感到兴奋。 仅HTML本身就足够令人兴奋。 人们对这些可以显示HTML的网络浏览器感到非常兴奋。
Stephan: People, like seven.
史蒂芬：人，就像七岁。
Kevin: It was a simpler time. 1994 came and HTML2 was the cool new thing, and that’s around the time where I got interested in this stuff. Fast forward to 1996 and CSS entered the picture, and very quickly behind it JavaScript; so now we had these three technologies working side by side, but HTML was boring, that was the old Web. The new Web was CSS and JavaScript. In ’97 it was all about HTML4, and I would also put Dynamic HTML in that sort of year, that’s kind of the fourth generation browsers coming out and them all saying Dynamic HTML, which was just a new marketing term for HTML4, CSS, and JavaScript used together. We had CSS2 in 1998, XHTML in 2000—man, did that not pan out.
凯文：那是更简单的时间。 1994年到来，HTML2是很酷的新事物，而那段时间我对这个东西很感兴趣。 快进到1996年，CSS进入了画面，并且很快出现了JavaScript。 所以现在我们让这三种技术并存，但是HTML很无聊，那是旧的Web。 新的Web是CSS和JavaScript。 在97年，有关HTML4的全部内容，我也将动态HTML放在这一年，也就是出现了第四代浏览器，他们都说动态HTML，这只是HTML4，CSS，和JavaScript一起使用。 我们在1998年有了CSS2，在2000年有了XHTML，可是，并没有成功。
In 2002 tableless web design, which again—
在2002年的无桌网页设计中，
Stephan: It’s a standard? Oh, wow.
史蒂芬：这是标准吗？ 哦，哇
Kevin: It’s just another name for CSS really. 2005, Ajax, and this is the one that feels the most to me like HTML 5 does today, Ajax, because once again, Ajax, when Jesse James Garrett first came out with the term Ajax it meant something very specific. It stood for something very specific; Asynchronous JavaScript and XML. But within six months the web marketing machine had whipped into its usual frenzy and turned Ajax from this very specific technical acronym into a marketing term. And so much so that we don’t even spell it in all capital letters anymore, these days we tend to spell Ajax with just a capital A because it’s a word with a very vague meaning. And I would not be surprised to see us spelling HTML5 with only a capital H very soon because we’re no longer talking about HyperText Markup Language; we’re talking about the entire collection of “the next big thing” coming to web browsers.
凯文：这确实是CSS的另一个名称。 2005年，Ajax，这是今天对我来说最像HTML 5的Ajax，因为Ajax再一次出现，当Jesse James Garrett首次提出Ajax一词时，它意味着非常具体的含义。 它代表着非常具体的东西。 异步JavaScript和XML。 但是在六个月内，网络营销机器陷入了狂热，并将Ajax从这个非常具体的技术首字母缩写变成了营销术语。 如此之多，以至于我们甚至都不再用大写字母来拼写，如今，我们倾向于只用大写A来拼写Ajax，因为这是一个含糊不清的词。 看到我们很快用大写的H拼写HTML5，我不会感到惊讶，因为我们不再谈论超文本标记语言。 我们正在谈论Web浏览器的“下一件大事”的整个集合。
Stephan: My vote is modern web technologies. That’s what we should call it. MWT.
斯蒂芬：我的投票是现代网络技术。 那就是我们应该称之为的。 MWT。
Patrick: Oh boy. Trademark.
帕特里克：天哪。 商标。
When look at this timeline, what I think of is where is HTML3?
当看这个时间轴时，我想到的是HTML3在哪里？
Kevin: Mmm! It got eclipsed by CSS1 and JavaScript in there somewhere.
凯文：嗯！ 它被某处CSS1和JavaScript所淹没。
Patrick: Wasn’t quite the buzz word.
帕特里克：不是一个时髦的词。
Stephan: Was there a full spec? I don’t even — I don’t remember.
史蒂芬：有完整的规格吗？ 我什至没有-我不记得了。
Kevin: 3.2 was the big one. Like when we were talking about HTML4 everyone was saying it’s better than HTML 3.2 for these reasons. But, yeah, I guess nothing really exciting happened between versions 2 and 3.2.
凯文： 3.2是大个子。 就像我们在谈论HTML4一样，由于这些原因，每个人都说它比HTML 3.2更好。 但是，是的，我想在版本2和3.2之间并没有发生什么令人兴奋的事情。
Stephan: What gets me is that when he defines HTML as roughly, he’s got the kind of like sign there; he’s got kind of equals HTML plus CSS plus JavaScript APIs. So it kind of equals that. Then what really is it, right? And that’s really the question I have.
史蒂芬：让我感到惊奇的是，当他将HTML大致定义为时，他在那里得到了类似的符号； 他拥有与HTML加CSS加JavaScript API相当的能力。 因此，这等于。 那到底是什么，对不对？ 这确实是我的问题。
Kevin: Well, it’s nothing.
凯文：嗯，没什么。
Stephan: Yeah, it’s a document, right. So I mean I just — I’m kind of the mindset that we’re throwing around this term willy nilly and hoping that someone’s going pay us to do something with it somewhere down the line.
斯蒂芬：是的，是文档。 所以，我的意思是，我只是-我的想法是，我们会甩掉这个词Willy Nilly，并希望有人会付钱给我们做一些事情。
Kevin: Well, you go to the very last slide of that presentation and he uses a hard equals sign and even makes it red. He says HTML5 equals next generation features for modern web development.
凯文：好吧，您转到该演示文稿的最后一张幻灯片，他使用了一个硬的等号，甚至使它变红。 他说HTML5等同于现代Web开发的下一代功能。
Stephan: Oh man, he’s close. One word off.
斯蒂芬：哦，老兄，他很近。 一句话。
Kevin: (laughs) Um, yeah. I wonder how many people actually get to the end of this presentation. It’s really impressive. As you say, it is built in “HTML5”, but a lot of these slides you can actually play with parts of them and see the actual features that are being talked about. Obviously you need a fairly up-to-date browser to view this, and if you’ve turned JavaScript off on this page you get a blank page, which I think is in itself just evidence of how this is not HTML we’re talking about. If it were you would be able to see something without JavaScript enabled. But this is not an HTML document; this is HTML and CSS being used on the fly with JavaScript to display something really impressive in your browser.
凯文：(笑)嗯，是的。 我想知道实际上有多少人会结束本演示文稿。 真是令人印象深刻。 就像您说的那样，它是用“ HTML5”构建的，但是您可以实际使用其中的许多幻灯片，并查看其中正在讨论的实际功能。 显然，您需要使用一个相当最新的浏览器来查看此内容，并且如果您在此页面上关闭了JavaScript，则会得到一个空白页面，我认为它本身就是我们所说的不是HTML的证据关于。 如果是这样，您将可以在未启用JavaScript的情况下看到某些内容。 但这不是HTML文档。 这是HTML和CSS与JavaScript一起动态使用，以在浏览器中显示真正令人印象深刻的内容。
But quickly flicking through the pages there’s the green labeled pages which are about JavaScript features. There’s a few red labeled pages about HTML features, and then like the whole second half is stuff in CSS. So, yeah, it’s a mix here we’re talking about. I guess when Steve Jobs says we don’t need Flash, we support HTML5, and developers should be using HTML5, you gotta sort of look at that word HTML5 and go “insert web technology of the day here”. Whatever web browsers are letting you do without Flash, that’s kind of what HTML 5 means in that context.
但是快速浏览页面时，会看到带有绿色标签的页面，这些页面与JavaScript功能有关。 有一些关于HTML功能的带有红色标签的页面，然后像整个下半部分一样是CSS中的内容。 是的，这是我们正在讨论的混合体。 我猜想，当史蒂夫·乔布斯(Steve Jobs)说我们不需要Flash时，我们就支持HTML5，而开发人员应该使用HTML5，那么您就应该看看HTML5这个词，然后“在这里插入当今的Web技术”。 无论使用什么网络浏览器，都无需使用Flash，这就是HTML 5在这种情况下的含义。
Stephan: And I think it’s being touted as open, right? HTML5 is being touted as open by Apple, right?
斯蒂芬：我认为它被吹捧为开放的，对吗？ HTML5被苹果吹捧为开放的，对吗？
Kevin: Yeah.
凯文：是的。
Stephan: And I don’t — that’s kind of a misnomer.
斯蒂芬：而且我不-那是个误称。
Kevin: Is it?
凯文：是吗？
Stephan: I think so. It’s open but some of the technologies it relies on aren’t open, such as the video codec; what is it, H.264? Is that the video codec; is that what it’s called?
史蒂芬：我是这样认为的。 它是开放的，但是它所依赖的某些技术尚未开放，例如视频编解码器。 什么是H.264？ 那是视频编解码器吗？ 这就是所谓的吗？
Kevin: Yeah.
凯文：是的。
Stephan: That’s not actually an open spec, right? That’s not an open codec. It’s a closed patented technology and that’s in HTML5, that’s what drives that video thing that we showed not too long ago.
斯蒂芬：那实际上不是开放规范，对吗？ 那不是一个开放的编解码器。 这是一项封闭的专利技术，在HTML5中，这就是驱动我们不久前展示的视频产品的动力。
Kevin: It’s in HTML5, the marketing term; it’s not in HTML5 the spec.
凯文：这是市场营销术语HTML5； 它不在HTML5规范中。
Stephan: Yeah, exactly.
斯蒂芬：是的，确实如此。
Kevin: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, it’s so confusing this stuff.
凯文：是的。 是啊。 哦，这东西太令人困惑了。
Ben Ward, whose essay I kind of quoted very quickly before, he says a few other things. He says “People are writing that the Web sucks, talking about it as an application platform.” And certainly, yeah, touching on the iPhone very briefly; when it first came out Apple wanted you to build applications for it using web technologies just like Palm wants you to do for their OS. And now we have Hewlett Packard apparently investing in that type of mobile application platform. But again, these efforts, these marketing people are casting the Web, web technology, as a platform for building applications, things that are not very web-like.
本·沃德(Ben Ward)，我之前曾很快引用过他的论文，他还说了几件事。 他说：“人们在写Web很烂，把它当作应用程序平台来讨论。” 当然，是的，非常简短地触摸了iPhone； 当苹果问世时，Apple希望您使用Web技术为其构建应用程序，就像Palm希望您为他们的OS一样。 现在，我们显然让惠普在这种类型的移动应用程序平台上进行了投资。 但是，通过这些努力，这些营销人员又将Web技术作为构建应用程序的平台铸造了Web，但这些东西并不是非常像Web的。
And Ben Ward quotes this guy, Sachin Agerwal, saying “Web applications don’t have threading, GPU acceleration, drag and drop, copy and paste of rich media, true offline access or persistence; are you kidding me?” And Ben Ward goes on to say “There in that quote is where I want to pull all this together. Sachin’s complaint has absolutely nothing to do with the Web. Think about that word, web, think about why it’s so named; it’s nothing to do with rich applications. Everything about web architecture, HTTP, HTML, CSS, is designed to serve and render content. But most importantly, the Web is formed where all of that content is linked together. That is what makes it amazing and that is what defines it. This purpose and killer application of the web is not even comparable to the application frameworks of any particular operating system.”
Ben Ward引用了Sachin Agerwal的话说：“ Web应用程序没有线程，GPU加速，拖放，富媒体复制和粘贴，真正的脱机访问或持久性； 你在跟我开玩笑吗？” Ben Ward继续说：“那句话是我想将所有这些内容整合在一起的地方。 Sachin的抱怨与网络完全无关。 想一想网络这个词，为什么要这么命名？ 与丰富的应用程序无关。 有关Web体系结构，HTTP，HTML，CSS的所有内容都旨在提供和呈现内容。 但最重要的是，形成了将所有这些内容链接在一起的Web。 那就是让它令人惊奇的东西，也就是它的定义。 Web的目的和杀手级应用甚至无法与任何特定操作系统的应用程序框架相提并论。”
So Ben is frustrated that his web technology is being appropriated and twisted for use as an application development platform.
Ben感到很沮丧，因为他的Web技术被用作应用程序开发平台而被篡改。
Patrick, I’m curious to hear what you think about this because you — I would cite you as an example of someone who is used to using web technology to build web, to build websites, interlinked documents, that sort of stuff. And probably once upon a time you felt like you had a pretty good handle on this HTML stuff. And today people are talking about building applications for their mobile phones using this stuff that you thought was for building websites.
帕特里克(Patrick)，我很想听听您对此的想法，因为您-我想举一个例子，说明您习惯于使用网络技术来构建网站，网站，链接的文档之类的东西。 也许从前，您觉得自己对HTML东西掌握得很好。 今天，人们正在谈论使用您认为用于构建网站的东西为他们的手机构建应用程序。
Is this a frustration for you? Do you feel like you’re losing touch with the Web because people are trying to use it for things that it shouldn’t be used for?
这让您感到沮丧吗？ 您是否因为人们试图将其用于不应使用的东西而失去与Web的联系？
Patrick: I’m in a fetal position right now. No, I wanted to say Sachin’s voice was pretty annoying when he was speaking back then, pretty annoying.
帕特里克：我现在是胎儿。 不，我想说的是Sachin当时说话时的声音很烦人。
Kevin: Thank you. Thank you very much.
凯文：谢谢。 非常感谢你。
Patrick: Here’s the thing about me; so I’m not really a coder, and I guess most people who know me know that. So I have some knowledge, I can program a little of HTML and CSS. I don’t even know if you call that programming. I can write a little code. And I’ve never felt like I had a great grasp on it. My main concern is always like if it works well in the browsers that are popular on the site. And, I don’t know, like that’s just my perspective of it. Now, HTML5, I mean it sounds cool and everything, but to me it just seems like it’s going to be something else to do, more code, or something, and my hope, and this kind of relates to the app store in a way, I guess, is that the programs that I use hopefully will take advantage of those technologies in a way that is popular with the masses.
帕特里克：这是关于我的事情； 所以我并不是真正的编码员，我想大多数了解我的人都知道这一点。 所以我有一些知识，我可以编写一些HTML和CSS。 我什至不知道您是否调用该程序。 我可以写一些代码。 而且我从来没有觉得自己能很好地掌握它。 我主要担心的是，它是否始终可以在该网站上流行的浏览器中正常运行。 而且，我不知道，就像那只是我的观点。 现在，HTML5，我的意思是听起来很酷，所有事情，但是对我来说，这似乎将是其他事情，更多的代码，或者是我的希望，而且这种方式在某种程度上与应用商店相关我猜想是，我希望使用的程序将以受到大众欢迎的方式利用这些技术。
So, for example, phpBB is a piece of software I use a lot, or WordPress. And so I rely on them for most of my sites, to power most of my sites. So my faith is in them to create code and software that will be well received now and in the future when I upgrade to new versions.
因此，例如，phpBB是我经常使用的软件或WordPress。 因此，我在大多数网站上都依赖它们，以支持大多数网站。 因此，我的信念是他们创建代码和软件，当我升级到新版本时，这些代码和软件将在现在和将来得到广泛好评。
I don’t know if that answers the question but there you go.
我不知道这是否能回答问题，但是您去了。
Kevin: Yeah. Well, it sounds like it does to me because once upon a time, back in HTML 3.2, which didn’t make that list, as you pointed out, but back in those days when a new version of HTML came out what people were excited about were the new tags that were being added to it. So if HTML were adding a <sarcasm> tag that would probably be something that you, Patrick O’Keefe, although I know you are never sarcastic, but that would be a new feature of HTML that you might be interested in because you’re writing a blog post, you go, oh, hey, this sentence is sarcastic, I can use that <sarcasm> tag to make sure people know that I’m being sarcastic.
凯文：是的。 嗯，这听起来像对我一样，因为曾经有一段时间，回到HTML 3.2，就像您指出的那样，它没有列出该列表，但是在那个年代，当新HTML版本问世时，人们感到很兴奋大约是要添加到其中的新标签。 因此，如果HTML添加的<sarcasm>标签可能是您想做的事情，Patrick O'Keefe，尽管我知道您从不讽刺，但这将是您可能感兴趣HTML的新功能，因为您写博客文章，你走，哦，嘿，这句话很讽刺，我可以使用<sarcasm>标记来确保人们知道我在讽刺。
Patrick: Isn’t that <em>? Just kidding.
帕特里克：那不是<em>吗？ 开玩笑。
Kevin: (laughs) Yeah, that is <em>, that’s how I use it. But it sounds like what you’re saying now is that you have given up and have decided that the features that are being added to HTML now are not for you the content producer, they are for the developers of these applications, the WordPress platforms, the phpBB platforms, and those are the people that these new features are being targeted at, and it is now up to the creators of these intermediary authoring software tools to create the features built on that foundation.
凯文：(笑)是的，就是<em> ，这就是我的用法。 但是听起来您现在所说的是您已放弃，并决定现在添加到HTML中的功能不适合您内容制作者，它们适合这些应用程序的开发者，WordPress平台，这些新功能的目标人群是phpBB平台，现在由这些中间创作软件工具的创建者来创建在此基础上构建的功能。
Patrick: For the masses I would say that’s true because it’s for developers. So phpBB, they’re developers.
帕特里克：对于大众，我会说是对的，因为它是针对开发人员的。 因此，phpBB是开发人员。
Kevin: I agree with you completely, definitely. Even the new tags that are being added to HTML 5, things like <article> and <header> and <footer>, really are— They’re not content producer features, they are features for creators of web content management systems. If you’re building a layout and a framework for a site as a whole from scratch these features are going to be interesting to you. But if you are a blogger, a content producer, HTML5 has moved on. It seems to be saying the collection of tags that you have now are good enough. And the few tags that people were thinking of taking out, like the bold tag and the italic tag, they’re being redefined with slightly different meanings so they continue to be useful for content producers. But, yeah, not a lot of love for the people who are actually writing the vibrant content that makes the Web a good thing to have around.
凯文：我完全同意你的观点。 即使是添加到HTML 5的新标签，诸如<article>和<header>和<footer>实际上也是-它们不是内容生产者功能，它们是Web内容管理系统创建者的功能。 如果您要从头开始为整个网站构建布局和框架，那么这些功能将对您很有趣。 但是，如果您是博客作者，内容生产者，则HTML5已经流行起来。 似乎是在说您现在拥有的标签集合足够好。 人们想删除的少数标签(如粗体标签和斜体标签)的含义有所不同，因此它们对内容生产者仍然有用。 但是，是的，对于实际上正在编写使Web成为一件好事的生动内容的人们并没有太多的热爱。
Patrick: It’s probably just a natural progression because it just makes the Web more accessible to people. On some level HTML and those things and different languages have always been for developers. I mean that’s what they are, so people who are developing phpBB or WordPress or the blog software of the future or who work for clients or who do programming for clients or for their own projects, because some projects are custom coded, those are the people that it’s really for. You see the commercial by, I think it’s GoDaddy or something, and their web page builder, you see this husband and wife sitting at the computer and the husband is all happy, he says “We’re gonna learn HTML!” And he flips the book and the wife looks scared to death.
帕特里克(Patrick)：这可能只是自然而然的进展，因为它只是使人们更容易访问Web。 在某种程度上，HTML以及那些东西和不同的语言一直适合开发人员。 我的意思是他们就是这样，所以那些正在开发phpBB或WordPress或将来的博客软件或为客户工作或为客户或自己的项目进行编程的人，因为某些项目是自定义编码的，这些人就是这是真的。 您会看到广告，我认为是GoDaddy之类的东西，以及他们的网页构建器，您看到这对夫妻坐在电脑前，丈夫非常高兴，他说：“我们要学习HTML！” 然后他翻书，妻子看上去很怕死。
Kevin: (laughs)
凯文：(笑)
Patrick: So that’s pretty much how I think most people feel.
帕特里克：这就是我大多数人的感觉。
Stephan: And would you say then too, Kevin, or Patrick I guess you can answer this too, that even with all these technologies being geared towards more the developer side, isn’t it still kind of overwhelming? I mean it’s a lot to keep up with.
史蒂芬：凯文还是帕特里克，我想您也可以回答这个问题，即使所有这些技术都面向更多开发人员，这还是不算太多吗？ 我的意思是要跟上很多。
Kevin: Even for developers, yeah.
凯文：即使是对于开发人员，也是。
Patrick: It’s always been overwhelming for me.
帕特里克(Patrick)：对我来说一直都是压倒性的。
Kevin: Yeah. Oh! I mean there’s a reason — this presentation you found, I’ve seen that link passed around a lot this week. And there’s a reason it’s popular. I mean it’s been passed around by people who I consider professional web developers and they’ve been saying things like, “Wow, finally everything in one place; I didn’t understand HTML5 until I watched this presentation.” And I’m going, hey, you’re supposed to be doing this for a living. Like this is a plumber saying, hey, I didn’t understand pipes until I saw this particular PowerPoint slide deck.
凯文：是的。 哦! 我的意思是有一个原因-您找到的这个演示文稿，我已经看到本周该链接通过了很多次。 而且有一个流行的原因。 我的意思是它已经被我认为是专业Web开发人员的人们所忽略，他们一直在说：“哇，最终所有内容都集中在一个地方； 在观看此演示文稿之前，我不了解HTML5。” 我要走了，嘿，你应该以此为生。 就像这句话是水管工说的，嘿，直到我看到这个特定的PowerPoint幻灯片座之后，我才理解管道。
Yeah. And the cruel twist is that give it a week and this slide deck will probably be out of date because people will have lumped more new things into the HTML5 marketing term. And unless they’re keeping that slide deck up to date it’s going to fall out of date.
是的 残酷的转折是给它一个星期的时间，此幻灯片组可能已过时，因为人们会在HTML5营销术语中加入更多新内容。 除非他们保持滑盖最新，否则它将过时。
Yeah. So I was walking down the street just the other night talking to this fellow named Russ Weakley. We were in Brisbane teaching some workshops. I was teaching JavaScript and he was teaching CSS. And we were talking about how for a while there the Web had slowed down, and this is back in the Internet Explorer 6 lull for the first half of the past decade. For a while there Internet technology slowed down to the point where as an individual you sort of could start to feel like you got your head around it all. It wasn’t changing so much everyday that you didn’t feel behind the curve at all times. But that isn’t true anymore; it feels like things are racing ahead at such a clip that you really do need to try and choose the things that are relevant to you to learn and to keep up with and just hope that all of the other stuff is taking care of itself by other passionate people who are interested in those details of the Web.
是的 因此，前一天晚上，我正沿着街走去，与这个名叫拉斯·韦克利的家伙交谈。 我们在布里斯班教一些讲习班。 我在教JavaScript，而他在教CSS。 我们谈论的是那里的Web放慢了多久，这又回到了过去十年中Internet Explorer 6的停滞状态。 一段时间以来，互联网技术发展缓慢，以至于您作为一个人可能会开始感觉到自己像头脑风暴一样。 每天变化不大，以至于您始终没有感觉落后。 但这不再是真的。 感觉事情正在以如此快的速度向前发展，您确实确实需要尝试并选择与您相关的事物以进行学习和跟进，并希望所有其他事物都能由他人来照顾自己对Web的那些细节感兴趣的热情人士。
Stephan: I agree. It’s hard for me to keep up. I’m just going to be honest. I got out of web development for a while and was doing consulting for a different industry. And I came back and everything’s changed. And so I’ve had to dive back in and try to learn it all and to me it’s overwhelming and I have a background in it. So I can’t imagine someone just starting out trying to figure out where to begin, just really getting the hang of it, and then it changes tomorrow or something. I think we’ve overcomplicated something that was fairly simplistic and useful.
史蒂芬：我同意。 我很难跟上。 我只是说实话。 我离开了Web开发一段时间，并在为另一个行业做咨询。 我回来了，一切都变了。 因此，我不得不重新学习并尝试全部学习，对我来说，这实在是令人难以置信，而且我有一定的背景知识。 因此，我无法想象有人刚开始尝试弄清楚从哪里开始，才真正掌握了要诀，然后明天就改变了。 我认为我们过于简单化和实用化了。
Kevin: This echoes the thoughts of a fellow named Tim Bray who works at Google. And this is another link for the show today, and this is one more voice that I’d like to bring into this discussion because he talks about what HTML5 means and how it is possibly, potentially important for the Web, but it is not vital for the Web.
凯文(Kevin)：这呼应了谷歌(Tim Bray)研究员的想法。 这是今天节目的另一个链接，也是我想在这次讨论中引入的另一种声音，因为他谈到HTML5的含义以及它对Web可能的潜在重要性，但并不重要。用于网络。
What he’s saying basically is that the Web will live on; it will continue to be important and useful whether or not HTML5 succeeds. And although looking at the HTML5 marketing term it seems clear that at least in the marketing sense HTML5 is destined to make an important impact on the Web. But as we’ve seen, that marketing term really encompasses everything but the kitchen sink, or even including the kitchen sink, when it comes to new browser technologies. So, it’s a pretty safe bet that some parts of it will be important even if it just turns out being the CSS features that are in there.
What he's saying basically is that the Web will live on; it will continue to be important and useful whether or not HTML5 succeeds. And although looking at the HTML5 marketing term it seems clear that at least in the marketing sense HTML5 is destined to make an important impact on the Web. But as we've seen, that marketing term really encompasses everything but the kitchen sink, or even including the kitchen sink, when it comes to new browser technologies. So, it's a pretty safe bet that some parts of it will be important even if it just turns out being the CSS features that are in there.
But talking about the HTML5 specification itself, the new tags, the new JavaScript features for working with those tags, and that sort of stuff, what he’s saying is that the Web doesn’t depend on that to pay off and to succeed. What he says is important about the Web is the hyperlinks, the URLs. And the Web has moved beyond the browser. If you get a tweet with a URL in it and you can click that URL to go and open a web page in a browser, that tweet is a part of the Web as far as he’s concerned, because it deals with these URLs; these interlinked things that are described with web addresses. And by the same token all of the best desktop software is linking into the Web using these URLs as well, and that his experience of the Web day to day is not just browsing web pages anymore, it’s reading tweets, it’s getting news feeds through his news reader, and that a lot of this stuff is kind of making progress and getting better, and whether or not HTML5 ends up succeeding or not.
But talking about the HTML5 specification itself, the new tags, the new JavaScript features for working with those tags, and that sort of stuff, what he's saying is that the Web doesn't depend on that to pay off and to succeed. What he says is important about the Web is the hyperlinks, the URLs. And the Web has moved beyond the browser. If you get a tweet with a URL in it and you can click that URL to go and open a web page in a browser, that tweet is a part of the Web as far as he's concerned, because it deals with these URLs; these interlinked things that are described with web addresses. And by the same token all of the best desktop software is linking into the Web using these URLs as well, and that his experience of the Web day to day is not just browsing web pages anymore, it's reading tweets, it's getting news feeds through his news reader, and that a lot of this stuff is kind of making progress and getting better, and whether or not HTML5 ends up succeeding or not.
If you’re building something webby that needs to link into the Web, but you’re building it for a mobile phone or you’re building it for a desktop, at least so far it seems clear that HTML5 is not, right now, not the best way to build one of those things; there are richer tool sets, whether it’s Flash, whether it is one of Apple’s development tools or whether you build it using old school desktop application programming languages.
If you're building something webby that needs to link into the Web, but you're building it for a mobile phone or you're building it for a desktop, at least so far it seems clear that HTML5 is not, right now, not the best way to build one of those things; there are richer tool sets, whether it's Flash, whether it is one of Apple's development tools or whether you build it using old school desktop application programming languages.
So the point he’s making, and I’m scrolling down to the section of his essay called “And Your Point Is?”. And I think I’ll just read from it here because it’s a subtle point: he says, “HTML5 promises to broaden the classification problems you can solve with HTML and providing a good user experience while saving time and money. But that’s all. It’s not better because it’s web technology, it’s better because it’s better than what came before. Except when it isn’t. Right now there are certain classes of applications, particularly on mobile devices, where you’re going to get a better result by building a native app. Maybe even by building two or three native apps for iPhone and Android and WebOS. This is entirely orthogonal to the webby-ness of the technologies.”
So the point he's making, and I'm scrolling down to the section of his essay called “And Your Point Is?”. And I think I'll just read from it here because it's a subtle point: he says, “HTML5 promises to broaden the classification problems you can solve with HTML and providing a good user experience while saving time and money. But that's all. It's not better because it's web technology, it's better because it's better than what came before. Except when it isn't. Right now there are certain classes of applications, particularly on mobile devices, where you're going to get a better result by building a native app. Maybe even by building two or three native apps for iPhone and Android and WebOS. This is entirely orthogonal to the webby-ness of the technologies.”
So it’s independent is what he’s saying. These applications can be more or less webby, and the fact that they are built in HTML or built in something else doesn’t really come into it.
So it's independent is what he's saying. These applications can be more or less webby, and the fact that they are built in HTML or built in something else doesn't really come into it.
He goes on to say, “And another point: building a really hot HTML5 application that takes advantage of the nice new features is not exactly easy. Even assuming that you’re using one of the dozens of clever toolkits it’s still not a slam dunk. In fact, compared to the level of support and tooling you get from Xcode on Apple’s side, or the various pieces of Android integrated development environment-ware, HTML 5 development is a major pain in the ass.”
He goes on to say, “And another point: building a really hot HTML5 application that takes advantage of the nice new features is not exactly easy. Even assuming that you're using one of the dozens of clever toolkits it's still not a slam dunk. In fact, compared to the level of support and tooling you get from Xcode on Apple's side, or the various pieces of Android integrated development environment-ware, HTML 5 development is a major pain in the ass.”
So what he’s saying is that HTML5 may end up being important or not, but right now it’s a pain in the ass, and the biggest challenge is to figure out whether we can make it not a pain in the ass.
So what he's saying is that HTML5 may end up being important or not, but right now it's a pain in the ass, and the biggest challenge is to figure out whether we can make it not a pain in the ass.
When did HTML become so complicated? It used to be HTML was the simplest part of the Web.
When did HTML become so complicated? It used to be HTML was the simplest part of the Web.
Stephan: Yeah, I agree. And I’m interested to see where we go from here. Do people kind of abandon the idea of using HTML5 as a buzz word? I doubt it. I think people are still going to push forward with that. But I think we may see people try to move away from web technology for a while and really focus on their apps. You know, for general things, things that people thought about doing on the Web.
Stephan: Yeah, I agree. And I'm interested to see where we go from here. Do people kind of abandon the idea of using HTML5 as a buzz word? 我对此表示怀疑。 I think people are still going to push forward with that. But I think we may see people try to move away from web technology for a while and really focus on their apps. You know, for general things, things that people thought about doing on the Web.
Kevin: Well, like I said, the last thing in that list, that timeline, the last buzz word before HTML5 was Ajax. And Ajax is another term that became so all encompassing and general that it basically became meaningless. And when is the last time you heard someone talk about an Ajax app?
Kevin: Well, like I said, the last thing in that list, that timeline, the last buzz word before HTML5 was Ajax. And Ajax is another term that became so all encompassing and general that it basically became meaningless. And when is the last time you heard someone talk about an Ajax app?
Stephan: Yeah, never.
Stephan: Yeah, never.
Kevin: Never. I mean all web apps are now Ajax apps effectively if they were built in the past year and are at all impressive or novel, it’s probably because they’re an Ajax app. But no one calls them that anymore.
Kevin: Never. I mean all web apps are now Ajax apps effectively if they were built in the past year and are at all impressive or novel, it's probably because they're an Ajax app. But no one calls them that anymore.
Stephan: Yep. Yep. I agree.
斯蒂芬：是的 。 是的 我同意。
Kevin: Well, let’s get to our host spotlights, shall we? Stephan, what have you got for us?
Kevin: Well, let's get to our host spotlights, shall we? Stephan, what have you got for us?
Stephan: Speaking of web technologies, no, I just was browsing around and found this tutorial on CSS3 gradient buttons.
Stephan: Speaking of web technologies, no, I just was browsing around and found this tutorial on CSS3 gradient buttons .
Kevin: CSS3, don’t you mean HTML5?
Kevin: CSS3, don't you mean HTML5?
Stephan: I think I do. I’m not really sure, though. But it’s a cross-browser button that’s got the gradient that everyone knows, you know, that fades from one side to the other and looks really cool. Really clean looking and it degrades gracefully, and it’s a good tutorial on how the writer did it. And it’s on a website called Web Designer Wall, and the author, I think — I had his name up here just a second ago.
Stephan: I think I do. I'm not really sure, though. But it's a cross-browser button that's got the gradient that everyone knows, you know, that fades from one side to the other and looks really cool. Really clean looking and it degrades gracefully, and it's a good tutorial on how the writer did it. And it's on a website called Web Designer Wall, and the author, I think — I had his name up here just a second ago.
Kevin: Yeah, it just says by Web Designer Wall.
Kevin: Yeah, it just says by Web Designer Wall.
Stephan: Yeah, I thought I had it but I don’t. But he writes a really great post on how he did it without images or JavaScript. So it’s just CSS 3. He’s got a nice demo, so if you’re wanting to do gradient buttons or something check it out, it’s cool.
Stephan: Yeah, I thought I had it but I don't. But he writes a really great post on how he did it without images or JavaScript. So it's just CSS 3. He's got a nice demo, so if you're wanting to do gradient buttons or something check it out, it's cool.
Kevin: Yeah. Nick La is the author of Web Designer Wall.
凯文：是的。 Nick La is the author of Web Designer Wall.
Those are some very nice buttons. Every time I see a link to one of these things I kind of cringe because I picture it’s going to be glossy, it’s going to look like one of these 1991 era Mac buttons, the sort of blue jellybean things. But I was pleasantly surprised when I clicked through to this. These are really tasteful, understated, but you really want to click ‘em.
Those are some very nice buttons. Every time I see a link to one of these things I kind of cringe because I picture it's going to be glossy, it's going to look like one of these 1991 era Mac buttons, the sort of blue jellybean things. But I was pleasantly surprised when I clicked through to this. These are really tasteful, understated, but you really want to click 'em.
Stephan: Yeah, they’re just simple buttons for form submission or whatever you want to use them for. It’s great.
Stephan: Yeah, they're just simple buttons for form submission or whatever you want to use them for. 这很棒。
Kevin: Yeah, they look like they belong on a web page. If these buttons appeared in a desktop application you’d kind of go, oh, that kind of looks like a web page button. But they’re perfect for the Web.
Kevin: Yeah, they look like they belong on a web page. If these buttons appeared in a desktop application you'd kind of go, oh, that kind of looks like a web page button. But they're perfect for the Web.
Patrick: Yeah, the small ones would’ve looked good on like forum software for the profile buttons that appear on posts, I mean that would be a nice little addition, and also it’s quick loading because it’s not a graphic, so they would work well there.
Patrick: Yeah, the small ones would've looked good on like forum software for the profile buttons that appear on posts, I mean that would be a nice little addition, and also it's quick loading because it's not a graphic, so they would work well there.
Stephan: Are you hinting at something Patrick?
Stephan: Are you hinting at something Patrick?
Kevin: My spotlight comes from a previous guest of this podcast, Derek Powazek joined us I think earlier this year for a couple of episodes to talk about, well, first of all he talked about publishing, the future of publishing, and digital publishing versus print publishing. And he also joined us to talk about web communities. And if you haven’t heard those episodes I do encourage you to go back and listen to those interviews because they’re some of my favorites for sure.
Kevin: My spotlight comes from a previous guest of this podcast, Derek Powazek joined us I think earlier this year for a couple of episodes to talk about, well, first of all he talked about publishing, the future of publishing, and digital publishing versus print publishing. And he also joined us to talk about web communities. And if you haven't heard those episodes I do encourage you to go back and listen to those interviews because they're some of my favorites for sure.
But what he’s been working on this past week is something called 48 Hour Mag, or a magazine — 48 Hour Magazine. And the idea here is that he got together a bunch of people and put together a magazine, a full printed, glossy, color, beautiful magazine in 48 hours. And this is the very first issue of this; I guess the assumption is they’re going to do it again if the experiment pays off. And the title of this issue is Hustle. So it is a 60 page magazine of artwork and original writing from well known photographers and authors and content creators from the print publishing world who got together and wrote and photographed and produced content on the theme of the word hustle.
But what he's been working on this past week is something called 48 Hour Mag, or a magazine — 48 Hour Magazine . And the idea here is that he got together a bunch of people and put together a magazine, a full printed, glossy, color, beautiful magazine in 48 hours. And this is the very first issue of this; I guess the assumption is they're going to do it again if the experiment pays off. And the title of this issue is Hustle. So it is a 60 page magazine of artwork and original writing from well known photographers and authors and content creators from the print publishing world who got together and wrote and photographed and produced content on the theme of the word hustle.
This is one of those great words that you sort of think and your mind goes through all these different connotations, like it’s a pretty, you know, the word means hurry, but I think of my soccer coach on Saturday mornings when I was growing up going “let’s see some hustle out there!” But at the same time there’s a seedier side to the word hustle that I don’t think I even need to go into.
This is one of those great words that you sort of think and your mind goes through all these different connotations, like it's a pretty, you know, the word means hurry, but I think of my soccer coach on Saturday mornings when I was growing up going “let's see some hustle out there!” But at the same time there's a seedier side to the word hustle that I don't think I even need to go into.
But the website, which is magcloud.com/browse/Issue/81528, and there’s a link to this on the podcast page if you don’t want to have to remember that or you can just Google for 48 Hour Mag.
But the website, which is magcloud.com/browse/Issue/81528 , and there's a link to this on the podcast page if you don't want to have to remember that or you can just Google for 48 Hour Mag.
It says “This is 48 Hour Magazine, a raucous experiment in using new tools to erase media’s old limits. As the name suggests, we wrote, photographed, illustrated, designed and edited a magazine in two days. From noon on May 7th, through to noon on the 9th, a team circled up around the original Rolling Stone conference table in Mother Jones’ offices to transform 1,502 submissions from around the world into a chorus of voices all harmonizing around the same theme, Hustle.” And the best thing is you can order it for just ten bucks.
It says “This is 48 Hour Magazine, a raucous experiment in using new tools to erase media's old limits. As the name suggests, we wrote, photographed, illustrated, designed and edited a magazine in two days. From noon on May 7th, through to noon on the 9th, a team circled up around the original Rolling Stone conference table in Mother Jones' offices to transform 1,502 submissions from around the world into a chorus of voices all harmonizing around the same theme, Hustle.” And the best thing is you can order it for just ten bucks.
So, I really enjoy what Derek Powazek does with his quarterly magazine, Fray, and this feels like a sequel in spirit to that. So I’m definitely trying to get my hands on a copy of this thing.
So, I really enjoy what Derek Powazek does with his quarterly magazine, Fray , and this feels like a sequel in spirit to that. So I'm definitely trying to get my hands on a copy of this thing.
Patrick: “Everyday I’m hustlin’. Everyday I’m — Everyday I’m –” No, congrats to Derek and Heather Champ on the launch of Fertile Medium as well. They recently launched a community kind of consultancy in the last month, and I just found out about it so it looks really cool.
Patrick: “Everyday I'm hustlin'. Everyday I'm — Everyday I'm –” No, congrats to Derek and Heather Champ on the launch of Fertile Medium as well. They recently launched a community kind of consultancy in the last month, and I just found out about it so it looks really cool.
Kevin: Hear, hear.
Kevin: Hear, hear.
Patrick: And my host spotlight is an article at Plagiarism Today, which is a site I mentioned earlier by Jonathan Bailey, it’s how schools are hurting the fight against plagiarism. And Jonathan talks about how schools, teachers, more schools themselves, are hurting the fight against plagiarism by instead of educating, inspiring a sense of fear and driving students to become better cheaters than to become better educated and to avoid plagiarizing the works of others. He cites a few examples in his work like one school he said that was dead set on expelling a student because of a missed citation. So it’s a really interesting article about how schools can do better.
Patrick: And my host spotlight is an article at Plagiarism Today, which is a site I mentioned earlier by Jonathan Bailey, it's how schools are hurting the fight against plagiarism . And Jonathan talks about how schools, teachers, more schools themselves, are hurting the fight against plagiarism by instead of educating, inspiring a sense of fear and driving students to become better cheaters than to become better educated and to avoid plagiarizing the works of others. He cites a few examples in his work like one school he said that was dead set on expelling a student because of a missed citation. So it's a really interesting article about how schools can do better.
Kevin: Wow. So, what is it saying that the schools are overreacting to plagiarism and thereby, what, creating an unhealthy environment for students to understand these issues?
凯文：哇。 So, what is it saying that the schools are overreacting to plagiarism and thereby, what, creating an unhealthy environment for students to understand these issues?
Patrick: Well, he’s saying that really where schools are focusing their efforts is on detecting plagiarism then in punishing people. Once works are submitted they have tools in place that are checking to see, checking those works against a database of other works to see if they’ve copied and they plagiarized. And then if those students are found to be plagiarizing then they are dealt with very harshly. He says what’s lacking though is education. For example, in writing classes, in English classes of any kind, where citations, not just plagiarism but proper citation, proper quoting, are maybe but footnotes as part of the lesson plan, not something that the teachers are going out of their way to teach and instruct students on. And he feels that’s where it needs to be improved and that there should be more leeway than to have a zero tolerance policy which, of course, some schools apparently have where you could if you have one sentence that’s misappropriated you could face dire consequence. He’s testified on behalf of students in a case he says where one sentence was literally the point of contention.
Patrick: Well, he's saying that really where schools are focusing their efforts is on detecting plagiarism then in punishing people. Once works are submitted they have tools in place that are checking to see, checking those works against a database of other works to see if they've copied and they plagiarized. And then if those students are found to be plagiarizing then they are dealt with very harshly. He says what's lacking though is education. For example, in writing classes, in English classes of any kind, where citations, not just plagiarism but proper citation, proper quoting, are maybe but footnotes as part of the lesson plan, not something that the teachers are going out of their way to teach and instruct students on. And he feels that's where it needs to be improved and that there should be more leeway than to have a zero tolerance policy which, of course, some schools apparently have where you could if you have one sentence that's misappropriated you could face dire consequence. He's testified on behalf of students in a case he says where one sentence was literally the point of contention.
Stephan: Yeah, that’s a little extreme.
Stephan: Yeah, that's a little extreme.
Kevin: I see what you mean. It sounds like you could do a whole podcast on this and probably have.
Kevin: I see what you mean. It sounds like you could do a whole podcast on this and probably have.
Patrick: Maybe.
Patrick: Maybe.
Kevin: (laughs) But yeah, the issue of content and how you build on someone else’s content in a responsible way is so important, not just on the Web but in the world in general these days. Because it used to be if you wanted to write about something you kind of started from scratch. And maybe students for years have been writing essays on the same subject, but you as a student would sit down and open the book that you were writing about and you would start your ideas from scratch. But these days no one starts from scratch. The Web has enabled us to, as a culture, as a race; continually build on what came before, the ideas that came before. But we’re not teaching students how to do that in a responsible way. And when they get it wrong, having a zero tolerance approach to it to say, “oh, you got it wrong, and by the way that was your last chance.”
Kevin: (laughs) But yeah, the issue of content and how you build on someone else's content in a responsible way is so important, not just on the Web but in the world in general these days. Because it used to be if you wanted to write about something you kind of started from scratch. And maybe students for years have been writing essays on the same subject, but you as a student would sit down and open the book that you were writing about and you would start your ideas from scratch. But these days no one starts from scratch. The Web has enabled us to, as a culture, as a race; continually build on what came before, the ideas that came before. But we're not teaching students how to do that in a responsible way. And when they get it wrong, having a zero tolerance approach to it to say, “oh, you got it wrong, and by the way that was your last chance.”
Patrick: Right, agreed. And I think that writing in general online, especially like you say, it’s so important whether you’re a blogger or you write for the New York Times, that you know how to properly excerpt and cite content so that you’re able to have some fair use claim at least, if anyone ever calls you on it, you need to be able to properly cite work.
Patrick: Right, agreed. And I think that writing in general online, especially like you say, it's so important whether you're a blogger or you write for the New York Times, that you know how to properly excerpt and cite content so that you're able to have some fair use claim at least, if anyone ever calls you on it, you need to be able to properly cite work.
Kevin: Yeah. Thank you Patrick.
凯文：是的。 Thank you Patrick.
Patrick: Sure thing. So we are about a week or so as this podcast will be released from the WordCamp Raleigh Conference in Raleigh North Carolina, May 22nd and 23rd, we’ll be hosting, and a live episode, for the first time ever of the SitePoint Podcast. So, we’ve been talking about it but in case you missed it we’ll be live streaming on USTREAM, and you’ll be able to see that at sitepoint.com/podcast. So that’s the URL that I’ll give if you can’t make it in person. But if you can make it there’s a coupon code for registrations, SitePoint15, it will get you 15% off, and we’d love to see you there whether online or in person.
Patrick: Sure thing. So we are about a week or so as this podcast will be released from the WordCamp Raleigh Conference in Raleigh North Carolina, May 22nd and 23rd, we'll be hosting, and a live episode, for the first time ever of the SitePoint Podcast. So, we've been talking about it but in case you missed it we'll be live streaming on USTREAM, and you'll be able to see that at sitepoint.com/podcast. So that's the URL that I'll give if you can't make it in person. But if you can make it there's a coupon code for registrations, SitePoint15, it will get you 15% off, and we'd love to see you there whether online or in person.
Kevin: I can’t wait. It’ll be the middle of the night for me, but it’s on a weekend so I’m going to be staying up for it for sure.
Kevin: I can't wait. It'll be the middle of the night for me, but it's on a weekend so I'm going to be staying up for it for sure.
Alright, well, look forward to that, and we will be trickling out bits and pieces of that live recording over the weeks and months to come I’m sure, depending on just exactly what we get. That’s the exciting thing about a live broadcast at a conference is we know we’re going to get good stuff, but we have no idea what it is yet. So, can’t wait to get some of that stuff out to you. Definitely if you are subscribed to this podcast you can expect to hear all the highlights as we identify and clip them out for you.
Alright, well, look forward to that, and we will be trickling out bits and pieces of that live recording over the weeks and months to come I'm sure, depending on just exactly what we get. That's the exciting thing about a live broadcast at a conference is we know we're going to get good stuff, but we have no idea what it is yet. So, can't wait to get some of that stuff out to you. Definitely if you are subscribed to this podcast you can expect to hear all the highlights as we identify and clip them out for you.
Our hosts for this week, Patrick, Stephan, who the heck are you?
Our hosts for this week, Patrick, Stephan, who the heck are you?
Patrick: Well, I’m Patrick O’Keefe of the iFroggy network, ifroggy.com, I’m on Twitter at @iFroggy.
Patrick: Well, I'm Patrick O'Keefe of the iFroggy network, ifroggy.com , I'm on Twitter at @iFroggy .
Stephan: I’m Stephan Seagraves, you can find me at badice.com, that’s my blog, and my Twitter username is @ssegraves.
Stephan: I'm Stephan Seagraves, you can find me at badice.com , that's my blog, and my Twitter username is @ssegraves .
Kevin: And I am @sentience on Twitter, and you can follow SitePoint on Twitter at sitepoint.com, that’s @sitepointdotcom. Visit the podcast at sitepoint.com/podcast to leave comments on the show and subscribe to receive every show automatically.
Kevin: And I am @sentience on Twitter, and you can follow SitePoint on Twitter at sitepoint.com, that's @sitepointdotcom . Visit the podcast at sitepoint.com/podcast to leave comments on the show and subscribe to receive every show automatically.
The SitePoint podcast is produced by Carl Longnecker. Welcome back, Carl, from your honeymoon; it’s good to have you back on deck.
The SitePoint podcast is produced by Carl Longnecker. Welcome back, Carl, from your honeymoon; it's good to have you back on deck.
Patrick: Woo-hoo!
Patrick: Woo-hoo!
Kevin: And I’m Kevin Yank. Thanks for listening. Bye bye!
Kevin: And I'm Kevin Yank. 谢谢收听。 再见！
Theme music by Mike Mella.
Mike Mella的主题音乐。
Thanks for listening! Feel free to let us know how we’re doing, or to continue the discussion, using the comments field below.
谢谢收听！ 欢迎使用下面的评论字段让我们知道我们的状况，或者继续讨论。
翻译自: https://www.sitepoint.com/podcast-61-html5-the-kitchen-sink/
